Dawes Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 It'll be interesting to see if this actually materializes: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/07/09/poland-could-purchase-m1-abrams-tanks-from-us/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty_Zuk Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 Hopefully it does, just for the sake of improved security for Poland. But I'm still rooting for the K2PL, for increased competition in the AFV market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrustMe Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) Why not stick with the Leopard 2. They already have them as the link state's. Less need to retrain and maintain plus Leopard 2's are in use in nearly all the European NATO countries except for France and the UK. Edited July 11, 2021 by TrustMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssnake Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 The Leopard 2 is good, but far from perfect (especially that hull ammo stowage). Also, I don't know how much of a role it plays in the strategic thinking of the Polish government, they might see a high dependency of their whole tank fleet on German support as a liability, or maybe they just want to poke a finger into Germany's eye for Nordstream 2 (not that I believe that the German government is bending over backwards to cover Krauss-Maffei's (or any other German defense corporation's) flank with political support). Buying tanks is at least as much a political decision than it is based on technological merits and price.  Whether the M1A2 is the optimal choice is a different question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 I doubt there are any surplus Leopards left and new ones might cost more than refurbished M1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Kotsch Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Weren't the Poles "uninvited" from the project "MBT of the future"? That could be the receipt. Maybe Poland just want to threaten, but the scenario is not entirely improbable. Yes, there is a lot of politics involved here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Im wondering if this is some method of staying close to the Americas, and stick to their promise under Trump to setup a base in Poland. I think the actual utility of the vehicle is secondary to the message its being used to send. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Ok, I can confirm with 100% that M1A2 is favorite besides K2PL. M1A2 have one significant advantage over K2PL... It exist in large numbers. Â There are other reasons. Â 1. Polish Army want to replace ASAP as many T-72's as possible. 2. In mid term it would be desirable to replace PT-91's. 3. In long term replacement of Leopard 2's is also desired. MoD is not happy with Leopard 2PL upgrade, let's say, there is a certain distaste to it. 4. MGCS so far is a fairy tale with death star syndrome. Germany and France can't agree on main gun for example. 5. Politics, NS2 etc. Â We might see official announcement or even contract signed in september, during MSPO expo. Anyway, new tanks are badly needed, and better ones than what we currently have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawes Posted July 11, 2021 Author Share Posted July 11, 2021 I'm guessing that Polish crews have already operated/tested the Abrams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Im wondering if this is some method of staying close to the Americas, and stick to their promise under Trump to setup a base in Poland. I think the actual utility of the vehicle is secondary to the message its being used to send. Its not that. US Army prepositioned stock for Armor Brigade is being built in Powidz as we speak. Aegis Ashore site in Redzikowo is in final stages of being finished, radars and VLS launchers are being integrated right now. Drawsko Pomorskie training center is expanded in to large military base as we speak. Next in line is Żagań-Świętoszów military complex that will be enlarged to house 2x polish army Armored cavalry brigades and 1x US Army armor brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dawes said: I'm guessing that Polish crews have already operated/tested the Abrams? Yes, many times. From what I heard they are very impressed with M1A2SEPv2, because this was the most common variant seen here. M1A2PL will most likely be based on M1A2SEPv3, however exact configuration is not yet known. Some rumors claim that it might be equipped with Trophy HV active protection system, but so far these are rumors only. Edited July 11, 2021 by Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, R011 said: I doubt there are any surplus Leopards left and new ones might cost more than refurbished M1s. Yes, but there is plenty of other reasons, both technical and political. Â Also plenty of rumors from Poland + several Independent sources from abroad, suggest, that M1 is the most likely victor of the "Wolf" program. Edited July 11, 2021 by Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Peter Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Will these tanks repaired and maintained by Poland alone, with "war with Russia" sized amount of spare parts, APS reloads and DU APFSDS? If not, will their contract contains the Iraqi closure ("we don't follow you to places where there is any chance of meeting the enemy")? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 1 minute ago, Adam Peter said: Will these tanks repaired and maintained by Poland alone, with "war with Russia" sized amount of spare parts, APS reloads and DU APFSDS? If not, will their contract contains the Iraqi closure ("we don't follow you to places where there is any chance of meeting the enemy")? We don't know details yet. Howe er most likely tanks will be maintained by GDLS in cooperation with local industry, just like in every other case. We need to wait for Polish MoD official statement or US DSCA agency statement. And as I said, it might happen in september, during MSPO expo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laser Shark Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Ironically, this is probably easier to swallow for KMW than a K2PL purchase would have been since a significant contract like this one would have given the latter an important foothold in the European tank market, and while it could be argued that this foothold has now been given to GDLS, I just don’t think they’ll be able to leverage this as effectively as Hyundai Rotem could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Any plans to replace the gas turbine power plant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, sunday said: Any plans to replace the gas turbine power plant? No details yet. We need to wait. We don't even know if M1 is really the winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, Laser Shark said: Ironically, this is probably easier to swallow for KMW than a K2PL purchase would have been since a significant contract like this one would have given the latter an important foothold in the European tank market, and while it could be argued that this foothold has now been given to GDLS, I just don’t think they’ll be able to leverage this as effectively as Hyundai Rotem could have. We don't know yet if M1 is the winner. MoD might surprise us and choose K2PL. Heck they might even choose both. I would wait till official informations will be avaiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohala Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, R011 said: I doubt there are any surplus Leopards left and new ones might cost more than refurbished M1s. This. Greece also looked closely at used M1s in recent years (a program that seems to have gone nowhere due to cost and lack of funds) but the reason is simply that there are no used Leo2 available and for buying new the cost is prohibitive. Also, I should look up some details, but from what I remember Greece found out that refurbished M1s are damn expesive as well. Edited July 11, 2021 by rohala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alejandro_ Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Quote Also, I should look up some details, but from what I remember Greece found out that refurbished M1s are damn expesive as well. Logistics are going to be an issue. In Gulf War fuel consumption of Abrams was 288% higher than M60. Â Quote MoD is not happy with Leopard 2PL upgrade, let's say, there is a certain distaste to it. Is this because of the weight limitations of versions operated by Poland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, alejandro_ said: Logistics are going to be an issue. In Gulf War fuel consumption of Abrams was 288% higher than M60. Â Is this because of the weight limitations of versions operated by Poland? No, there is more problems. Both technical, and lets say cooperation with Rheinmetall is not the best. There are other issues I heard about, but I wont talk about them in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) https://www.gov.pl/web/obrona-narodowa/czolgi-abrams-dla-sil-zbrojnych-rp?fbclid=IwAR0JGpqcl02JHXGBBgttnSOSRTwfAZWQlG3QFqhkIAn5TnCkMXbVmQrdplY  Huge news, Polish MoD confirms Poland is purchasing M1A2SEPv3's. Tommorow in Wesoła where 1st Armored Brigade is stationed, MoD will present details at 11:00 local time. Edited July 13, 2021 by Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawes Posted July 14, 2021 Author Share Posted July 14, 2021 Pizza and hookers in the General Dynamics offices tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 K2PL would have been worse for KWM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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