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The Italian invasion of Crete in May 41  was with 2585 men based in formation regiment of Regina div. , blackshirts and 2 sailor companies for beach operations plus 13 tankettes, 3 cars, a bus, 9 motorcycles and 205 mules.

The British would be worse since logistical it would be a second Malta. They would need to takeover Dodecanese after Crete.

Edited by lucklucky
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1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

The Italian invasion of Crete in May 41  was with 2585 men based in formation regiment of Regina div. , blackshirts and 2 sailor companies for beach operations plus 13 tankettes, 3 cars, a bus, 9 motorcycles and 205 mules.

The British would be worse since logistical it would be a second Malta. They would need to takeover Dodecanese after Crete.

I guess I don't follow? Why does the fact the Italians could only muster two battalions from the division in the Dodecanese for an invasion make it worse for the British? Or are the two unrelated? Why would Crete be a second Malta?

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2 hours ago, lucklucky said:

The British would be worse since logistical it would be a second Malta. They would need to takeover Dodecanese after Crete.

It's closer to Egypt, so the British should be in much better shape than Malta, both in the air and at sea.  The logistics should also be easier, in part due to proximity, but in part because the air defenses of Crete would be stronger than at Malta.

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The Italian invasion of Crete in May 41  was with 2585 men based in formation regiment of Regina div. , blackshirts and 2 sailor companies for beach operations plus 13 tankettes, 3 cars, a bus, 9 motorcycles and 205 mules.

Assuming the British hold Crete the garrison could easily be something like 40,000, including armor and plenty of artillery.  

Edited by glenn239
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2 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

I guess I don't follow? Why does the fact the Italians could only muster two battalions from the division in the Dodecanese for an invasion make it worse for the British? Or are the two unrelated? Why would Crete be a second Malta?

I did not meant they were related.

My point i that it is another Malta that RN would take heavy losses supplying. Airfield in Dodecanese and Greece will be better supplied.

 

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It's closer to Egypt, so the British should be in much better shape than Malta, both in the air and at sea.  The logistics should also be easier, in part due to proximity, but in part because the air defenses of Crete would be stronger than at Malta.

The heavy RN losses will continue trying to supply it. The Souda port is not comparable in defense potential - including natural and expanded caves - to Malta.

40000 will came from N.Africa, Malta forces?

Overall it is a theater shift from N.Africa to Crete. In my opinion that benefits Axis if the British are unable to offset the extended logistics with damage Ploesti. British will have to add to supplying Malta and Cyprus, the 40000 men in Crete.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

 

My point i that it is another Malta that RN would take heavy losses supplying. Airfield in Dodecanese and Greece will be better supplied.

The heavy RN losses will continue trying to supply it. The Souda port is not comparable in defense potential - including natural and expanded caves - to Malta.

40000 will came from N.Africa, Malta forces?

Overall it is a theater shift from N.Africa to Crete. In my opinion that benefits Axis if the British are unable to offset the extended logistics with damage Ploesti. British will have to add to supplying Malta and Cyprus, the 40000 men in Crete.

 

 

 

The Axis airfields in Dodecanese and Greece will be better supplied given enough time but during that time so will British airfields on Crete, most happend to be out of Me 109 range. 

That also depends on the British air strength.

The locals? They did fight and quite well.

 

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5 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Crete southern coast is harsh, so the supplies need to come from northern ports. Bf 109 have range if there are appropriate airfield in southern Greece and islands, more with drop tanks.

Yes, it is, except for Sphakia. Except for 3,486 troops known evacuated from Heraklion most escaped from Sphakia:

26 May - a mixed force landed 930 "unnecessary troops" at Alexandria

29 May - Force C landed 608 troops at Alexandria

30 May - Force D landed 6,029 troops at Alexandria

31 May - HMS Napier and Nizam landed 1,510 troops at Alexandria

31 May - mixed force for cruisers and destroyers landed 3,710 troops at Alexandria

Another 238 were taken off and returned to Alexandria, but it is unclear how many from each of the ports. Also unclear if the 216 troops wounded when Orion was bombed in the return from Heraklion are included, but it is certain the 155 troops killed aboard her were not. It is likely though that those 216 wounded are accounted for in the 238 and the remainder were from other damaged ships.

Thus, it seems most likely that about 3,724 escaped wounded and unwounded from Heraklion and 12,787 from Sphakia. Another 54 were evacuated by flying boat.

I'd have to go back and review, but I believe that while Suda was within range of Bf 109 from the mainland, Heraklion was not, nor was much of the south shore. Nor do I think the Dodecanese were much of a choice at the time, since I believe there were just two useful airfields on Rhodes and one on Leros.

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 There were 2 airfields in Scarpanto, one was even bombed by HMAS Sydney.

In Milos was a landing ground build by Germans at time of occupation.

Bf 109 had a 5-600km range without drop tanks and around 1000km with. I don't see any problem  with Bf 109 range.

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18 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Crete southern coast is harsh, so the supplies need to come from northern ports. Bf 109 have range if there are appropriate airfield in southern Greece and islands, more with drop tanks.

Afaik, there were no airfields on these islands. The closest was on the Peloponnese, no idea how far the Italian fields on the Dedocanese were away. 

 

PS: An Me 109 E-4 had a combat radius of 100 miles. If an an E-7 with drop tanks had a radius of 200, that would put Crete within range. However that seems to be generous. Malame was the No.1 target because it was within range of mainland based 109s. It is roughly 100 miles from there to Molai. 

If we assume a combat radius of 150 m, the eastern half within those based on Karpathos, the western of those based at Molai. 

Edited by Markus Becker
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It seems Crete was at a location where it pushed the limits of both sides to project power at the time. Did the Germans utilize the island for anything after they capture it? Or they  just defending it.  Did they use it for offensive air operations?

The British were concerned that Cyprus was next when Crete fell and its 500 Kms from Rhodes.  They stationed an Indian division here for a while until it became clearer that no invasion was in the books.  One infantry division on an island larger than Crete was insufficient to cover the whole island but it would do vs an airborne attack.

I remember stories about the British driving around the island in armored cars just to give an impression of a larger force being present.

 

Edited by Mistral
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26 minutes ago, Mistral said:

It seems Crete was at a location where it pushed the limits of both sides to project power at the time. Did the Germans utilize the island for anything after they capture it? Or they  just defending it.  Did they use it for offensive air operations?

 

Operationa Albumen here,

Operation Albumen - Wikipedia

Indicates that in 1942 Crete was becoming a major Luftwaffe supply hub for Rommel in North Africa.  Also, performing combat and recce missions.

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3 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Afaik, there were no airfields on these islands. The closest was on the Peloponnese, no idea how far the Italian fields on the Dedocanese were away. 

 

PS: An Me 109 E-4 had a combat radius of 100 miles. If an an E-7 with drop tanks had a radius of 200, that would put Crete within range. However that seems to be generous. Malame was the No.1 target because it was within range of mainland based 109s. It is roughly 100 miles from there to Molai. 

If we assume a combat radius of 150 m, the eastern half within those based on Karpathos, the western of those based at Molai. 

Scarpanto is Italian Dodecanese, you might know it as Karphatos, 180 km from Heraklion and covers all eastern Crete, Milos is at 160km, it can cover central Crete.

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - Greece Crete and the Dodecanese.pdf

Note that more could have been build if necessary.

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1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

Scarpanto is Italian Dodecanese, you might know it as Karphatos, 180 km from Heraklion and covers all eastern Crete, Milos is at 160km, it can cover central Crete.

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - Greece Crete and the Dodecanese.pdf

Note that more could have been build if necessary.

Indeed, there were numerous permanent and temporary fields set up for MERKUR, but we have already posited that MERKUR is dead, so the Luftwaffe has to start over again and would not have the capability to repeat such an operation, especially while BARBAROSSA is going on, until spring 1942. By that time, with Crete still in British hands, the Luftwaffe and RA in the Med are behind the 8-ball as they were historically and are facing a much stronger RAF. The lack of Cretan basing considerably reduces their ability to conduct maritime reconnaissance in the Eastern Med, especially if the RAF chooses a campaign to track and kill such aircraft, which possession of Crete gives them ability to do. Without Crete as a bulwark to hold off RN incursions, the Germans and Italians would be hard put to maintain the Dodecanese bases...they are simply too small and too hard to supply. In effect, it reverses the situation of fall 1943 and Eisbär.

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On 2/17/2021 at 1:29 AM, RichTO90 said:

I wasn't looking that hard, given the chariness the Italians were exhibiting with their battle fleet...and I forgot about the Cesare. She rejoined the fleet after her Punto Stilo hit in October 1940. Doria was available, Littorio rejoined in April, Duiliio in May 1941, and Veneto in August from their Taranto damage.

However, as you say, none of them is going to get too close to the British, especially north of the island...but then, I never imagined the British would send battleships north of Crete either. Light cruisers and destroyers would likely make hash of anything the Italians could put together.

During Merkur, Royal Navy intercepted two convoys, both escorted only by single torpedo boat. Two later convoys got through, although by then battle was already largely decided. RN's interception put them within stone throw of Axis air fields, and they took heavy damage and withdrew. I don't fancy RN chances of defeating a better prepared seaborne invasion under those circumstances as the battle would mostly take place in daylight where the British would not enjoy radar advantage as in Matapan etc. Actually breaking through escort is not easy. RN didn't even manage to sink either of those Italian torpedo boats.

RM battlefleet would probably sortie south of Crete, to disrupt British efforts. Italians actually considered such sortie, but Germans had assured them they could handle Crete on their own, and RM did not want to disturb North African convoys. British would have been pretty ill-prepared to meet such sortie, as they did not have air assets to spare to hunt the Italians, and Mediterranean fleet battleships were much too slow to catch the Italians.

However as said, any significant participation of RM to battle for Crete would have meant stopping the NA convoys as Italians did not have enough escorts to run all these operations at the same time. And similar sacrifices would have been necessary regarding air assets etc.

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2 hours ago, lucklucky said:

If strong N.African allied resources move to Crete then allied N.Africa is weaker.What they can do from Crete that can offset that?

Well, mostly to protect Ploesti. Axis were very worried that the Allied would bomb the oil fields from Crete, and surely they would have had they have been left in place.

Of course, keeping Crete supplied would have been big drain for the British as the transportation was nearly as vulnerable as in Malta.

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It is true they were afraid,but in practical term if they bombed it with Wellington and Blenheims unescorted due to range they would be in a for a massacre. Even the historical Ploesti bombing with hundreds more and heavier B-24 wasn't a success.

Edited by lucklucky
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Yes Ploesti was heavily defended and Romanian Air Force were tough hosts to deal with. Early actual attempts were indeed a disaster, to the point of making Schweinfurt look like a picnic. Still, it was such an obvious opportunity that the Brits surely would have tried it. Although actual results would have come only when American heavy bombers came available in sufficient numbers. Campaign would have been, in the end, surely easier had they held Crete.

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6 hours ago, lucklucky said:

If strong N.African allied resources move to Crete then allied N.Africa is weaker.What they can do from Crete that can offset that?

Much of the forces already there, evacuated from Greece, can be reorganized and reequipped in place. Also, the Greek forces on the island can be expanded and better armed and equipped.

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3 hours ago, Yama said:

During Merkur, Royal Navy intercepted two convoys, both escorted only by single torpedo boat. Two later convoys got through, although by then battle was already largely decided. RN's interception put them within stone throw of Axis air fields, and they took heavy damage and withdrew. I don't fancy RN chances of defeating a better prepared seaborne invasion under those circumstances as the battle would mostly take place in daylight where the British would not enjoy radar advantage as in Matapan etc. Actually breaking through escort is not easy. RN didn't even manage to sink either of those Italian torpedo boats.

RM battlefleet would probably sortie south of Crete, to disrupt British efforts. Italians actually considered such sortie, but Germans had assured them they could handle Crete on their own, and RM did not want to disturb North African convoys. British would have been pretty ill-prepared to meet such sortie, as they did not have air assets to spare to hunt the Italians, and Mediterranean fleet battleships were much too slow to catch the Italians.

However as said, any significant participation of RM to battle for Crete would have meant stopping the NA convoys as Italians did not have enough escorts to run all these operations at the same time. And similar sacrifices would have been necessary regarding air assets etc.

True enough, except what shape is the RM going to be in for such an operation in 1942? So the Germans assured the Italians they didn't need help, but in this scenario, the Germans were wrong. In 1942, aren't the Italians going to pressing for Operazione C-3? The one that gets differed again to supply Rommel? So where does the spare forces come from to undertake a third major Med task in 1942? Failing to take Crete in spring 1941, adds a headache to bother the German and Italian strategic picture.

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2 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

Much of the forces already there, evacuated from Greece, can be reorganized and reequipped in place. Also, the Greek forces on the island can be expanded and better armed and equipped.

There was no relevant air force there, only 12000 were POW  so that is the number you can use without affecting troops in other areas - not even including supplies, weapons, etc. - and that is assuming a thousand or more of those 12000 would not be killed/wounded fighting the remaining Germans and Italians, the later did not even entered combat.

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