Jump to content

AFVs of Internal Security Forces


BansheeOne

Recommended Posts

Not talking about mere uparmored cars/trucks but proper AFVs employed by (paramilitary) police, gendarmerie/carabinerie/guardia civil/border guards. What do or did they have, and what was/is their role? The old West German Federal Border Guard initially employed M8 Geyhounds down-gunned to a single MG 42 (and in some cases a 20 mm gun), then the MOWAG Wotan in the same variants (SW I and II), and briefly the Saladin (SW III); but then it started life as a paramilitary force before establishment of the Bundeswehr and continued to have wartime combattant status until the 90s.

The various state police agencies also had, and continue to have (in the form of the TW-170/SW 4) a couple Geschützte Sonderwagen, continueing the legacy of Polizeikampf against armed insurrection from the Weimar Republic. During the Cold War this was mostly directed against the possibility of a communist uprising, but obviously they come in handy as mobile armored protection in armed standoffs while offensive effect is an afterthought these days. Airport security seems to be a pretty regular mission. Even the SW 4 is increasingly replaced by more general protected patrol car types like the MOWAG Eagle or Enok.

m8.jpg

m8zobel.jpg

A372.JPG

55603-large.jpg

1478-15-jpg

266005-large.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My father in the 1960's was part of the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars, a TA outfit that had a fairly unconspicuous role. Their objective was to go into post nuclear strike cities and downs,and reestablish order. Anyone that has seem 'The War Game' or 'Threads' can have a fairly clear idea what that means, but anyway, it was an internal security role.

The equipment they used was the Daimler Ferret and the Daimler Dingo. My father liked the former,he said the latter had a tendency to tip over. He said that the only bad thing about the Ferret was if you were driving one down a steep hill, the road tended to disappear in front of thedriver,and you really needed someone like the Commander to tell you where you were going.

We obviously dont have an internal security force like West Germany did and Germany does. We prefer to use either reserve formations or regular army formations for that role. The best known example is the occasional use of Armoured Recce Squadrons to do the security at Heathrow.

_83916862_gettyimages-3288312.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most serious mobile firepower for internal security I'm aware of was in former Italian 11th Carabinieri Mechanized Brigade, and I'm not sure they fit the topic since they had a specific wartime role, though their personnel could also be used for anti-riot duty and such. Those were essentially regular mechanized battalions per Italian Army organization, equipped with M47s and M113s. Per the Wiki entry, one of those was deployed to South Tyrol for repression of separatist terrorism in 1964, though.

The French Gendarmerie mobile has an armored group they assumed from the Guard republicaine, successively equipped with Shermans, AML-60/90 and AMX-13, replaced by the VBC-90 armored car from 1981. I can only assume they were intended chiefly for their guard duties of government institutions in Paris.

1000px-VBC-90_mg_7761.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Historically local police had first M3A1 Scout Cars and M-8 Greyhounds, that army removed from service. Those were later replaced in 1970s by Romanian TAB-71M copy of the BTR-60PB that army acquired and then rejected due the poor performances and build quality. In 1980s local BOV series vehicles started replacing those. Those are still in use in most ex-Yugo states.

TAB-71M equipped for riot duties:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/btr60/btr60-14.jpg

BOV M-86 with "riot" configuration with extendable barriers

DSC_9329.jpg

Serbian police version with TAB-71M turret:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-12.jpg

Bosnian police version with improvised turret:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-9.jpg

Another police version with improvised protection from the 1990s:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-34.JPG

Serbian gendarmerie version in "urban" camo:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-18.jpg

Edited by bojan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Over here, the BMR was repurposed for Police use after the Army starting parting with them, for what purpose, I don't know, as they are assigned to the riot police units:

image.php?file=fichero_16363_20181015.jp

And so does Peru with the former Marine BMR

FORO POLICIA • Ver Tema - Blindados BMR para la Policía Nacional

Previously, the Guardia Civil used the BLR together with the Marines and the Air Force:

Camion Intervención Pegaso BLR 600 4x4 - GRS Guardia Civil (1996) 1/43  Policia | eBay

While Police used the UR-416

Una historia de la Policía Nacional.: Tanqueta modelo UR-416

Just like Peru!

El Ejército de Perú busca empresa para recuperar diez blindados UR-416 -  Noticias Infodefensa América

:)

Edited by RETAC21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not necessarily. Though the European LE agency scene is certainly less fragmented, state and municipal police do exist in many countries besides a national force, even if the last tend to have few powers and there is a high degree of national standardization. Relevant to the topic, German state police forces which are the chief owners of LE powers operat(ed) the same types of armored vehicles as the BGS/Federal Police, but not the variants with 20 mm guns and up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Not necessarily. Though the European LE agency scene is certainly less fragmented, state and municipal police do exist in many countries besides a national force, even if the last tend to have few powers and there is a high degree of national standardization. Relevant to the topic, German state police forces which are the chief owners of LE powers operat(ed) the same types of armored vehicles as the BGS/Federal Police, but not the variants with 20 mm guns and up.

In regard to armored vehicles and machine guns, would this be do to Europe's history of, for want of better words, more "serious" L.E. matters, ie, "violent" governmental changes, assisting in public protection during foreign invasions, etc.?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Rick said:

In regard to armored vehicles and machine guns, would this be do to Europe's history of, for want of better words, more "serious" L.E. matters, ie, "violent" governmental changes, assisting in public protection during foreign invasions, etc.?

I would say this is due to May 68 and afterwards protests overwhelming existing forces.

Compare

In France, The Protests Of May 1968 Reverberate Today — And Still Divide  The French : Parallels : NPR

Crs French Riot Police Force Fotos e Imágenes de stock - Alamy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As noted in the German case, Polizeikampf including use of armored vehicles against armed insurrection goes back to the Weimar Republic with its political instability and streetfighting. In a protocol to the Versailles Treaty, Germany was authorized a total of 150 armored cars with two machinegun each for internal security purposes. Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement.

Ehrhardt E-V/4 from army stocks:

Ehrhardt_1.jpg

Ehrhardt/21 built specifically for police:

640px-Polizei_Sonderwagen_Ehrhardt_21_um

The Benz/21 and Daimler/21 looked very similar.

Austria had the Steyr ADGZ with 20 mm gun which was used by the army, gendarmerie and Federal Security Guard Corps in small numbers (27 total) from 1935. After the Anschluss they were taken over by the SS; three were used in the takeover of Danzig in 1939. Another 25 were ordered in 1941 and used for anti-partisan warfare in the USSR and Balkans.

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2005-0182,_Anschlu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

As noted in the German case, Polizeikampf including use of armored vehicles against armed insurrection goes back to the Weimar Republic with its political instability and streetfighting. In a protocol to the Versailles Treaty, Germany was authorized a total of 150 armored cars with two machinegun each for internal security purposes. Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement.

Ehrhardt E-V/4 from army stocks:

Ehrhardt_1.jpg

built specifically for police:

640px-Polizei_Sonderwagen_Ehrhardt_21_um

The Benz/21 and Daimler/21 looked very similar.

Austria had the Steyr ADGZ with 20 mm gun which was used by the army, gendarmerie and Federal Security Guard Corps in small numbers (27 total) from 1935. After the Anschluss they were taken over by the SS; three were used in the takeover of Danzig in 1939. Another 25 were ordered in 1941 and used for anti-partisan warfare in the USSR and Balkans.

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2005-0182,_Anschlu

"Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement." Now it makes sense. Thanks for the history lesson.

By the way that Ehrhardt/21 looks like it does not have tires. Looks like it is ready to run on railroad tracks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Rick said:

"Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement." Now it makes sense. Thanks for the history lesson.

By the way that Ehrhardt/21 looks like it does not have tires. Looks like it is ready to run on railroad tracks.

Probably "bulletproof" solid rubber is on the wheel, tank style thickness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Those were later replaced in 1970s by Romanian TAB-71M copy of the BTR-60PB that army acquired and then rejected due the poor performances and build quality. In 1980s local BOV series vehicles started replacing those. Those are still in use in most ex-Yugo states.

I have seen a photo of a BTR-60PB in a Serbian museum, apparently it was one the vehicles that was evaluated. Any particular reason to reject it? 

Apparently TAB-71M was built with poor quality steel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Adam Peter said:

Probably "bulletproof" solid rubber is on the wheel, tank style thickness.

The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels.

640px-Panzermuseum_Munster_2010_0061.JPG

640px-Polizei_Sonderwagen_Benz_21_um1921

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

I have seen a photo of a BTR-60PB in a Serbian museum, apparently it was one the vehicles that was evaluated. Any particular reason to reject it? 

Apparently TAB-71M was built with poor quality steel.

Poor reliabilit,y petrol engines,  hard to drive with two-engine setup, no exits for infantry other than top hatches, poor elevation of main armament preventing AA use, poor mobility in difficult terrain, poor turning ability compared with tracked vehicles.

Yugoslavia was not big on wheeled APCs, those were considered couple of times with BTR-152, BTR-60* and Dutch one being evaluated**, but main purpose of APC was seen as ability to follow tanks and period wheeled APCs were poorly suited for that. In early 1980s new idea was considered that wheeled APCs should be replacement for the trucks in motorized infantry, with two main contenders being 6x6 VAB and Pandur. Breakup prevented those plans, but Slovenians acquired Pandur based on that concept and trials.

 

*There were however BTR-60 command vehicles in use in SA-9 batteries.

**Trials that lead to BOV M-86 also included 4x4 VAB, but BOV was specifically for the vehicle intended only for military and regular police in APC version, not for a motorized infantry.

Edited by bojan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels.

640px-Panzermuseum_Munster_2010_0061.JPG

640px-Polizei_Sonderwagen_Benz_21_um1921

Nothing like a amchine-gun to stop a riot:

The 1932 Bilbao armored car was used by Police (Guardia de Asalto) and the Cavalry

El Blindado “Bilbao” en la exposición de Automoción y Guerra Civil de  Salamanca -noticia defensa.com - Noticias Defensa España

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vehicle authorization for a BGS Abteilung (battalion) ca. 1970 at the peak of its armor equipment, still clearly geared towards paramilitary border security. Over the course of the 70s, the force was reoriented to police tasks in response to the terrorism of that decade, losing the Saladins and 20-mm-armed MOWAGs. Civilian police ranks were introduced in 1976.

2 x Jäger hundredship with HQ squad, three platoons of three squads each, and an administrative section:

Piktogramme-509.jpg

Fahrzeuge-510.jpg

1 x protected hundredship with HQ squad, three platoons of three squads (two with 2 x MOWAG SW 1, one with 1 x SW 1 and 1 x truck) each, a mortar platoon and an administrative section:

Piktogramme-511.jpg

Fahrzeuge-511.jpg

1 x HQ hundredship with HQ squad, signals platoon of 1 x voice radio, morse radio and telephone squad each, reconnaissance platoon with 6 x MOWAG (two 20 mm), special car platoon with 3 x Saladin, emergency (engineer) platoon including inflatables and ferry equipment, maintenance section and administrative section:

Piktogramme-512.jpg

Fahrzeuge-512.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/1/2021 at 2:21 PM, BansheeOne said:

The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels.

640px-Panzermuseum_Munster_2010_0061.JPG

 

 

That exact one was reportedly used in the defence of the Reichskanzlei in 1945. ... Desperate times indeed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a reason we went from .50 armed Lynx to 25 mm armed Coyote.  Hopefully we'll only fight insurgents with nothing better than Toyota pick ups and not a conventional army's recce elements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...