BansheeOne Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 Not talking about mere uparmored cars/trucks but proper AFVs employed by (paramilitary) police, gendarmerie/carabinerie/guardia civil/border guards. What do or did they have, and what was/is their role? The old West German Federal Border Guard initially employed M8 Geyhounds down-gunned to a single MG 42 (and in some cases a 20 mm gun), then the MOWAG Wotan in the same variants (SW I and II), and briefly the Saladin (SW III); but then it started life as a paramilitary force before establishment of the Bundeswehr and continued to have wartime combattant status until the 90s. The various state police agencies also had, and continue to have (in the form of the TW-170/SW 4) a couple Geschützte Sonderwagen, continueing the legacy of Polizeikampf against armed insurrection from the Weimar Republic. During the Cold War this was mostly directed against the possibility of a communist uprising, but obviously they come in handy as mobile armored protection in armed standoffs while offensive effect is an afterthought these days. Airport security seems to be a pretty regular mission. Even the SW 4 is increasingly replaced by more general protected patrol car types like the MOWAG Eagle or Enok.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 My father in the 1960's was part of the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars, a TA outfit that had a fairly unconspicuous role. Their objective was to go into post nuclear strike cities and downs,and reestablish order. Anyone that has seem 'The War Game' or 'Threads' can have a fairly clear idea what that means, but anyway, it was an internal security role. The equipment they used was the Daimler Ferret and the Daimler Dingo. My father liked the former,he said the latter had a tendency to tip over. He said that the only bad thing about the Ferret was if you were driving one down a steep hill, the road tended to disappear in front of thedriver,and you really needed someone like the Commander to tell you where you were going. We obviously dont have an internal security force like West Germany did and Germany does. We prefer to use either reserve formations or regular army formations for that role. The best known example is the occasional use of Armoured Recce Squadrons to do the security at Heathrow.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 FUG? Ive always thought that was a handsome vehicle, at least compared to a BRDM.
Adam Peter Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: FUG? Ive always thought that was a handsome vehicle, at least compared to a BRDM. Yes. Honestly, I was shocked by the machine guns in the Police Museum, then this ...
BansheeOne Posted January 31, 2021 Author Posted January 31, 2021 The most serious mobile firepower for internal security I'm aware of was in former Italian 11th Carabinieri Mechanized Brigade, and I'm not sure they fit the topic since they had a specific wartime role, though their personnel could also be used for anti-riot duty and such. Those were essentially regular mechanized battalions per Italian Army organization, equipped with M47s and M113s. Per the Wiki entry, one of those was deployed to South Tyrol for repression of separatist terrorism in 1964, though. The French Gendarmerie mobile has an armored group they assumed from the Guard republicaine, successively equipped with Shermans, AML-60/90 and AMX-13, replaced by the VBC-90 armored car from 1981. I can only assume they were intended chiefly for their guard duties of government institutions in Paris.
bojan Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Historically local police had first M3A1 Scout Cars and M-8 Greyhounds, that army removed from service. Those were later replaced in 1970s by Romanian TAB-71M copy of the BTR-60PB that army acquired and then rejected due the poor performances and build quality. In 1980s local BOV series vehicles started replacing those. Those are still in use in most ex-Yugo states. TAB-71M equipped for riot duties: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/btr60/btr60-14.jpg BOV M-86 with "riot" configuration with extendable barriers Serbian police version with TAB-71M turret: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-12.jpg Bosnian police version with improvised turret: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-9.jpg Another police version with improvised protection from the 1990s: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-34.JPG Serbian gendarmerie version in "urban" camo: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m86/bov-18.jpg Edited January 31, 2021 by bojan
RETAC21 Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) Over here, the BMR was repurposed for Police use after the Army starting parting with them, for what purpose, I don't know, as they are assigned to the riot police units: And so does Peru with the former Marine BMR Previously, the Guardia Civil used the BLR together with the Marines and the Air Force: While Police used the UR-416 Just like Peru! Edited February 1, 2021 by RETAC21
Rick Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 So it appears Europe's countries have a history of a national police force while the U.S. is state centered.
BansheeOne Posted February 1, 2021 Author Posted February 1, 2021 Not necessarily. Though the European LE agency scene is certainly less fragmented, state and municipal police do exist in many countries besides a national force, even if the last tend to have few powers and there is a high degree of national standardization. Relevant to the topic, German state police forces which are the chief owners of LE powers operat(ed) the same types of armored vehicles as the BGS/Federal Police, but not the variants with 20 mm guns and up.
Rick Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, BansheeOne said: Not necessarily. Though the European LE agency scene is certainly less fragmented, state and municipal police do exist in many countries besides a national force, even if the last tend to have few powers and there is a high degree of national standardization. Relevant to the topic, German state police forces which are the chief owners of LE powers operat(ed) the same types of armored vehicles as the BGS/Federal Police, but not the variants with 20 mm guns and up. In regard to armored vehicles and machine guns, would this be do to Europe's history of, for want of better words, more "serious" L.E. matters, ie, "violent" governmental changes, assisting in public protection during foreign invasions, etc.?
RETAC21 Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 22 minutes ago, Rick said: In regard to armored vehicles and machine guns, would this be do to Europe's history of, for want of better words, more "serious" L.E. matters, ie, "violent" governmental changes, assisting in public protection during foreign invasions, etc.? I would say this is due to May 68 and afterwards protests overwhelming existing forces. Compare
BansheeOne Posted February 1, 2021 Author Posted February 1, 2021 As noted in the German case, Polizeikampf including use of armored vehicles against armed insurrection goes back to the Weimar Republic with its political instability and streetfighting. In a protocol to the Versailles Treaty, Germany was authorized a total of 150 armored cars with two machinegun each for internal security purposes. Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement. Ehrhardt E-V/4 from army stocks: Ehrhardt/21 built specifically for police: The Benz/21 and Daimler/21 looked very similar. Austria had the Steyr ADGZ with 20 mm gun which was used by the army, gendarmerie and Federal Security Guard Corps in small numbers (27 total) from 1935. After the Anschluss they were taken over by the SS; three were used in the takeover of Danzig in 1939. Another 25 were ordered in 1941 and used for anti-partisan warfare in the USSR and Balkans.
Rick Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 19 minutes ago, BansheeOne said: As noted in the German case, Polizeikampf including use of armored vehicles against armed insurrection goes back to the Weimar Republic with its political instability and streetfighting. In a protocol to the Versailles Treaty, Germany was authorized a total of 150 armored cars with two machinegun each for internal security purposes. Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement. Ehrhardt E-V/4 from army stocks: built specifically for police: The Benz/21 and Daimler/21 looked very similar. Austria had the Steyr ADGZ with 20 mm gun which was used by the army, gendarmerie and Federal Security Guard Corps in small numbers (27 total) from 1935. After the Anschluss they were taken over by the SS; three were used in the takeover of Danzig in 1939. Another 25 were ordered in 1941 and used for anti-partisan warfare in the USSR and Balkans. "Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement." Now it makes sense. Thanks for the history lesson. By the way that Ehrhardt/21 looks like it does not have tires. Looks like it is ready to run on railroad tracks.
Adam Peter Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 30 minutes ago, Rick said: "Overall, continental European police forces tend to have a military lineage vs. the Anglo tradition of civilian law enforcement." Now it makes sense. Thanks for the history lesson. By the way that Ehrhardt/21 looks like it does not have tires. Looks like it is ready to run on railroad tracks. Probably "bulletproof" solid rubber is on the wheel, tank style thickness.
alejandro_ Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 Quote Those were later replaced in 1970s by Romanian TAB-71M copy of the BTR-60PB that army acquired and then rejected due the poor performances and build quality. In 1980s local BOV series vehicles started replacing those. Those are still in use in most ex-Yugo states. I have seen a photo of a BTR-60PB in a Serbian museum, apparently it was one the vehicles that was evaluated. Any particular reason to reject it? Apparently TAB-71M was built with poor quality steel.
BansheeOne Posted February 1, 2021 Author Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Adam Peter said: Probably "bulletproof" solid rubber is on the wheel, tank style thickness. The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels.
bojan Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, alejandro_ said: I have seen a photo of a BTR-60PB in a Serbian museum, apparently it was one the vehicles that was evaluated. Any particular reason to reject it? Apparently TAB-71M was built with poor quality steel. Poor reliabilit,y petrol engines, hard to drive with two-engine setup, no exits for infantry other than top hatches, poor elevation of main armament preventing AA use, poor mobility in difficult terrain, poor turning ability compared with tracked vehicles. Yugoslavia was not big on wheeled APCs, those were considered couple of times with BTR-152, BTR-60* and Dutch one being evaluated**, but main purpose of APC was seen as ability to follow tanks and period wheeled APCs were poorly suited for that. In early 1980s new idea was considered that wheeled APCs should be replacement for the trucks in motorized infantry, with two main contenders being 6x6 VAB and Pandur. Breakup prevented those plans, but Slovenians acquired Pandur based on that concept and trials. *There were however BTR-60 command vehicles in use in SA-9 batteries. **Trials that lead to BOV M-86 also included 4x4 VAB, but BOV was specifically for the vehicle intended only for military and regular police in APC version, not for a motorized infantry. Edited February 1, 2021 by bojan
RETAC21 Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, BansheeOne said: The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels. Nothing like a amchine-gun to stop a riot: The 1932 Bilbao armored car was used by Police (Guardia de Asalto) and the Cavalry
BansheeOne Posted February 5, 2021 Author Posted February 5, 2021 Vehicle authorization for a BGS Abteilung (battalion) ca. 1970 at the peak of its armor equipment, still clearly geared towards paramilitary border security. Over the course of the 70s, the force was reoriented to police tasks in response to the terrorism of that decade, losing the Saladins and 20-mm-armed MOWAGs. Civilian police ranks were introduced in 1976. 2 x Jäger hundredship with HQ squad, three platoons of three squads each, and an administrative section: 1 x protected hundredship with HQ squad, three platoons of three squads (two with 2 x MOWAG SW 1, one with 1 x SW 1 and 1 x truck) each, a mortar platoon and an administrative section: 1 x HQ hundredship with HQ squad, signals platoon of 1 x voice radio, morse radio and telephone squad each, reconnaissance platoon with 6 x MOWAG (two 20 mm), special car platoon with 3 x Saladin, emergency (engineer) platoon including inflatables and ferry equipment, maintenance section and administrative section:
Markus Becker Posted February 5, 2021 Posted February 5, 2021 On 2/1/2021 at 2:21 PM, BansheeOne said: The Ehrhardt and Daimler Type 21s had spoked wheels with solid rubber tires secured with discs of armor. The Benz had straight metal discs for wheels. That exact one was reportedly used in the defence of the Reichskanzlei in 1945. ... Desperate times indeed.
Simon Tan Posted February 6, 2021 Posted February 6, 2021 We are buying more as running costs of ancient V-100s has become excessive. Our move to Isuzu D-Max pickups in lieu of Landies ahs been mixed but inevitable.
R011 Posted February 6, 2021 Posted February 6, 2021 There's a reason we went from .50 armed Lynx to 25 mm armed Coyote. Hopefully we'll only fight insurgents with nothing better than Toyota pick ups and not a conventional army's recce elements.
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