weird news morphing into theology debate

[bd1]

9 hours ago, sunday said:

It could be said that Catholicism brought peace to the Americas, eliminating atrocities like the flower wars.

Protestantism, on the other side, was similar to Islam in that they believed in extending the faith by the sword, or the repression by the State.

the competing catholics over here crusading were happily executing locals when they accepted christianity from competing company, like Sword Brothers Order hanged catholics who had been converted by Danes etc., 

 

[sunday]

38 minutes ago, bd1 said:

the competing catholics over here crusading were happily executing locals when they accepted christianity from competing company, like Sword Brothers Order hanged catholics who had been converted by Danes etc., 

 

Are you sure of the reasons why that was allegedly done? If it was, at all.

[Michael Eastes]

On 1/15/2021 at 2:35 AM, Rick said:

I believe the Teleogical Argument as described by Geisler and Turek describes the universe best.

1. Every design has a designer

2. The universe is a highly complex design

3. Therefore, the universe had a designer. 

Another piece of evidence is the Anthropic Principle, that thee universe is extremely fine-tuned (designed) to support life on earth.

Just one for instance, Jefferey Zweerink a U.C.L.A. research physicist has said that if gravitational force was altered by 0.00000000000001 %, the sun would not exist. 

But this is not the main reason for religion. Authentic religion is to bring man closer to God via his son Jesus Christ as written in the Bible. 

This.

God has offered mankind salvation through faith, and faith alone. Nevertheless, God’s Creation shows me lots of evidence; then again, I have faith, and scripture tells us that those without faith will be blind to such things. I know that I was, in my younger days.

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, Michael Eastes said:

...and faith alone

Sorry, but that is a Lutheran invention. For instance, see here.

Agree very much on the rest of the post.

Edited January 21, 2021 by sunday

[bd1]

20 minutes ago, sunday said:

Are you sure of the reasons why that was allegedly done? If it was, at all.

because if you were baptised by danes, you fell under their jurisdiction , if by germans, under them.  everybody fought each other over  land, germans, danes, church bishops, everyone was grabbing land

this map did not turn out so by peaceful means, but crusaders fought locals and each other over it

https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestlaste_muistne_vabadusvõitlus#/media/Fail:Medieval_Livonia_1260.svg

[Michael Eastes]

5 minutes ago, sunday said:

Sorry, but that is a Lutheran invention. For instance, see here.

Agree very much on the rest of the post.

Not a Lutheran invention, but an honest reading of scripture. Luther himself helped get that ball rolling, though.

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, bd1 said:

because if you were baptised by danes, you fell under their jurisdiction , if by germans, under them.  everybody fought each other over  land, germans, danes, church bishops, everyone was grabbing land

this map did not turn out so by peaceful means, but crusaders fought locals and each other over it

https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestlaste_muistne_vabadusvõitlus#/media/Fail:Medieval_Livonia_1260.svg

Then it looks like it was not because religious reasons, but political ones. You could have put a better example of war between Catholics by citing, for instance, the Hundred Years War.

[sunday]

Just now, Michael Eastes said:

Not a Lutheran invention, but an honest reading of scripture. Luther himself helped get that ball rolling, though.

Lets agree to disagree. 

[Michael Eastes]

3 minutes ago, sunday said:

Lets agree to disagree. 

I already had...

[sunday]

1 minute ago, Michael Eastes said:

I already had...

Heretic! 😋

[Rick]

I'll attempt to summarize my response to RETAC21's posts on "The Enlightenment" and Christianity as a religion of peace.
RETAC21 is absolutely correct in that the Enlightenment was a great advance in the civilization of Western Europe and the U.S.* From the tone of his posts he is correct that the Enlightenment stopped or greatly slowed the intwinement of Church and state.  RETAC21 is also correct in the corruption by the higher church leadership. One example being kings and clergy in being men; wanted power, stroked ambitions,and caused numerous wars using man's excuse of "God Wills It." Hardly the example set forth in Matthew 22:36-40. Also, imo, Mark 12:14-17.
The Enlightenment only occurred in Christian countries. The Enlightenment stressed man's reasoning, individual dignity, the rule of law, and scientific observations. I've already covered how this was mentioned several times in the Bible. It is obvious that the Enlightenment was built on the foundation of Christian thought and doctrine. For an excellent example see this site
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
In regards to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" shows the wisdom of our Founding Fathers in their observations of Europe's religious wars, where authorities intertwined church and state.  Even a cursory look at the writers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution show how God and people go hand in hand for good government. For example;

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "Why should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble."

John Adams"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts." Oh how far has the U.S. fallen from this wisdom!

Re-reading my prior posts, I cannot find where I state Christianity is the only true religion because it is the only peaceful religion. If I give that impression, that was not my intent. Reading Sunday's prior posts, unless I'm missing something, wars between Christians have been a lot less damaging in all regards than say non-religious wars. Which leads up to my asterisk in my second sentence. Look how human reasoning without Jesus has moved from the 18th century to the 20th. These most murderous times, both physically and morally, were caused by non Christian men leading secular governments. And is continuing to do so!

 

[Rick]

On 1/21/2021 at 5:26 AM, seahawk said:

Can you not make the same quote about any religion? Once you come into contact with something like a church (be it small or be it large) you are looking at something man made and made by man to control man.

Perhaps more importantly, can you say the same about government?

[seahawk]

16 minutes ago, Rick said:

Perhaps more importantly, can you say the same about government?

Yes and for any form of government too.

[Rick]

On 1/21/2021 at 5:33 AM, JasonJ said:

This is going to be a very dry bone cheesy sounding answer, but it should be said.

I am not an animal.I agree, but what passes for intellect in the U.S. today would disagree.

Also, has consideration been put into the affect that a statement like your paragraph has? What naturally is implied is that all those that do not "open up to God" or worse "reject his spirit" are consequently inferior, as in animals, and thus the natural social governance of the society is that those that are not believers are past down to second class citizenship. John 3:16. further explanation John 3:12-21.

A person should not have to be put into a defensive about their own personality and belief when particularly they have no record of criminal behavior or are not heavy users of various vices. But a non-believe is faced with that statement hanging over their head in society, then that is an unwarranted social pressure that a person has to defend themselves against. Based on what I see and hear in today's world, I would say the opposite it true. 

And the trap about having to defend one's own personality and belief is that by defending it inevitably has the effect, even if completely unintended, having the result of being an attack on the other person's belief in Christianity because at the center of the, or lets call it discussion, is what reality is and so with a non-believer (or different religion too really) is butting heads with a Christian, the reality cannot satisfy both sides. Do you believe man or God? Joshua 24:15

 

[Rick]

6 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Yes and for any form of government too.

I agree. A citizenry has to choose wither morality come from law or government. With God, people prosper, without God...not so much.

[JasonJ]

41 minutes ago, Rick said:

 

To your second point, I don't disagree that there are aggressive rhetoric against Christianity. But it is not from me. 

For your Bible quotes, I'm going to pass on arguing against reality being the framework of "to serve the lord or to not serve the lord".

[Adam Peter]

On 1/21/2021 at 12:00 AM, Rick said:

 

?

Predestination, i.e. lack of free will in the Bible.

[MiloMorai]

Do those that believe in this mythical being also believe ghosts, goblins, banshees, harpies, leprechauns, ..... 

[JasonJ]

14 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Do those that believe in this mythical being also believe ghosts, goblins, banshees, harpies, leprechauns, ..... 

No, they don't. Because there is much more to the existence of God of Christianity than those other examples.

[Rick]

21 hours ago, JasonJ said:

To your second point, I don't disagree that there are aggressive rhetoric against Christianity. But it is not from me. 

For your Bible quotes, I'm going to pass on arguing against reality being the framework of "to serve the lord or to not serve the lord".

 Joshua 24:15 and Matthew 6:24 are similar. Just my opinion, but think of this as your mission statement. 

[Rick]

15 hours ago, Adam Peter said:

Predestination, i.e. lack of free will in the Bible.

I would say Biblically you have all the free will you want. Wither this causes you to spend eternity in smoking or non-smoking is the answer. 

[Rick]

9 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Do those that believe in this mythical being also believe ghosts, goblins, banshees, harpies, leprechauns, ..... 

Well, TankNet's banshee is a real and an intelligent poster. 

[BansheeOne]

I may be real, but nobody dies when I show up. 

At least there's no scientific evidence. 😶

[MiloMorai]

Baháʼí Faith

The teachings of Baháʼu'lláh form the foundation of Baháʼí belief. Three principles are central to these teachings: the unity of God, the unity of religion, and the unity of humanity. Baha'is believe that God periodically reveals his will through divine messengers, whose purpose is to transform the character of humankind and to develop, within those who respond, moral and spiritual qualities. Religion is thus seen as orderly, unified, and progressive from age to age.

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

[Rick]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:36 AM, MiloMorai said:

Baháʼí Faith

The teachings of Baháʼu'lláh form the foundation of Baháʼí belief. Three principles are central to these teachings: the unity of God, the unity of religion, and the unity of humanity. Baha'is believe that God periodically reveals his will through divine messengers, whose purpose is to transform the character of humankind and to develop, within those who respond, moral and spiritual qualities. Religion is thus seen as orderly, unified, and progressive from age to age.

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

 

Superficially Bahai sounds good, but a bit more thorough and intelligent investigation reveals some errors with Baha'i  which are: 

Bahaullah denies the truth of Jesus.
The Bible is one of many good texts, but only Bahaullah's words are the truth.
Salvation is based mainly on human good works. 

Some other obvious Bahi errors are, from the Wiki article:

"Baháʼu'lláh wrote of the need for world government in this age of humanity's collective life."

Baháʼu'lláh desires  a mendicant and ascetic lifestyle, but "Baháʼís should make a 19% voluntary payment on any wealth in excess of what is necessary to live comfortably, after the remittance of any outstanding debt. The payments go to the Universal House of Justice."