RETAC21 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 31 minutes ago, sunday said: Ssnake, you could have a look here, and find answers to all those questions. Also, among the different Christian sects and denominations, only the RCC claims that there is no Salvation outside of the Church. Of course, there are nominal Catholics that are outside of the Church, like most heretics, and there are people that are not Catholic but would join the Church were they know of it. Few of the later remain, of course. Oh, what a joy are we Catholics going to have in Paradise with our 70 virgins and our servants before we reincarnate back
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, RETAC21 said: are we Catholics I do not know. Are you?
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, R011 said: Just because you claim it is doesn't make it so. Your entire "proof" just boils down to "I say so". ok, as it seem the theology thread is continuing, please let me to add a bit. There is a bit of, I guess Oriental, wisdom that goes like this: "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still make a sound?" If a classical Physcist, or a Mechanical Engineer is asked that question, the answer could be something in the line of: "Well as the tree is surrounded by other trees, it would break branches, both its and from other trees, generating vibrations that are transmitted to the ambient air in the form of pressure waves, thus making a sound. Moreover, when falling, the impact of the trunk against the soil would also excite vibrations both in the wood and the soil, vibrations that would be transmitted to the ambient air in the form of pressure waves, thus making a sound. So yes, even if there is no one to hear it, there will be a sound. Also, nobody has come ever with news of a tree falling silently while surrounded by air at atmospheric pressure, and forests do not grow in vacuum. If one finds a forest in vacuum, then there are worrying developments around." If a modern philosopher, a Sofist more probably than not, is asked that question, he will reference Descartes, with some luck, and deny that there is a reality that we could not apprehend with our senses. Well, if one would answer like the classical physicist or the mechanical engineer, he is an adept of Philosophical Realism, while if one prefer the answer of the modern philosopher, he is on the side of Philosophical Idealism. More here. Ultimately, Realism could be condensed on the basic, evident premise first stated by Parmenides that seemingly is formulated in English as "Whatever is is, and what is not cannot be". I think it is more clear in Spanish "Lo que es, es, y lo que no es, no es." Parmenides also was the first in stating that "From the nothing comes nothing." Those are pretty self evident truths. Well, if one accepts those two simple, evident premises, then one recognizes Philosophical Idealism as an exercise in nothing, and the clockmaker argument is revealed like the fallacy it is.
Rick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 5 hours ago, Ivanhoe said: Gents, there is now 3 pages plus of theology in this thread. Any chance you could take this debate to its own theology thread? Good idea, I guess it is up to a TN higher power?
bojan Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Would anyone recognize a god for a god, or even be aware of his existence if he is really a god? Edited January 17, 2021 by bojan
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, bojan said: Would anyone recognize a god for a god, or even be aware of his existence if he is really a god? Well, Moses needed some help at Mount Horeb.
RETAC21 Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 7 hours ago, JasonJ said: Sorry, can't help myself Welcome to Hell
RETAC21 Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 12 hours ago, sunday said: I do not know. Are you? You don't know what you are?
sunday Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 18 minutes ago, RETAC21 said: You don't know what you are? No, I do. You?
RETAC21 Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, sunday said: No, I do. You? Why do you care, I wonder? add some levity yo your posting, enjoy the Sight
Rick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 16 hours ago, Ssnake said: How can we know that the Ten Commandments are the true set of rules? You're using a faith-based argument to support a faith-based decision. There's countless other religions that claim to be the real one.. Are man's myriad of laws any better, give better results, than the Ten Commandments? The one that "speaks to me"? The prettiest/most impressive leather bound one? The one I like best? Pre-Nicean, or post-nicean? Catholic, or Protestant? King James, or Luther's? I grant you there's considerable overlap but as a rule book by which one decides one's fate in the afterlife, it definitely sucks. If god isn't the one you think he is but insists on being the oly one, every prayer to someone else is just going to irate him even more. Avoiding the question? 'I'll ask again, ''Are man's myriad of laws any better, give better results, than the Ten Commandments?' "There's countless other religions that claim to be the real one." Yes. And they are wrong. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." I think you'll find in other religions one must work up to God. In Christianity, God comes down to us. In other religions, one must work for salvation. With Christ, salvation is a gift. "Even if one subscribes to the theory that the Bible is the direct word of God, it has undergone numerous editing steps, so who am I to decide which of the variants is the true one." Philologist around the world and through the ages have verified the words of the Bible from then to now. Short version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrxleZ58UKc Longer version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZp7n3s0d6Q "If god isn't the one you think he is but insists on being the oly one, every prayer to someone else is just going to irate him even more." What results have these prayers to "other gods" done?
Rick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 11 hours ago, JasonJ said: Sorry, can't help myself
Rick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 12 hours ago, bojan said: Would anyone recognize a god for a god, or even be aware of his existence if he is really a god? Yes. This is described in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Rick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 I forgot to add this, but an interesting book is by a former skeptic, the long-time homicide detective J. Warner Wallace. The title is "Cold Case Christianity."
Rick Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 11 hours ago, JasonJ said: Quite an accurate statement. The world has been and is full of actors pretending to be God.
Wobbly Head Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 My take on Gods plan follows the Terry Pratchett quote. “God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”
sunday Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 Pratchett was a good writer. Nothing more, nothing less. Also a heathen that was not brave enough to face his last moments alive.
JasonJ Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 5 hours ago, RETAC21 said: Welcome to Hell Mr. Bean makes it look like a fun place
JasonJ Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Rick said: Quite an accurate statement. The world has been and is full of actors pretending to be God. I meant it lightly
Ssnake Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 5 hours ago, Rick said: "There's countless other religions that claim to be the real one." Yes. And they are wrong. Ah, thanks. That's so reassuring.
Ssnake Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 5 hours ago, Rick said: "If god isn't the one you think he is but insists on being the oly one, every prayer to someone else is just going to irate him even more." What results have these prayers to "other gods" done? If one applies the standard logic of Christians to attribute every fortunate change of events as a confirmation of their faith (and every negative turn as a test of it), the answer is "everything". It's fine that you believe what you do, but I find the standard sophistry indistinguishable from those who think it's some Elephant god who's pulling the strings with his merry band of colleagues.
R011 Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 20 hours ago, bojan said: Would anyone recognize a god for a god, or even be aware of his existence if he is really a god? Just to be sure, if a one eyed man with a pair of pet ravens asks if he can come in out of the rain, say yes.
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