sunday Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 9 minutes ago, R011 said: And yours was an argument from authority. A counter to that is to show that the authority, in fact, is not one. Ad hominem would be if I said Aristotle wasn't an authority because he was gay (true or not) or some such irrelevancy. Aristotle is not an authority in Newtonian Physics, but he is an authority in Metaphysics. So using his errors in Physics to disqualify his writings on Metaphysics is an ad hominem fallacy, of the most typical sort, like disqualifying Newtonian optics because Newton did not predict quantum mechanics.
R011 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 I doubt Aristotle made the distinction between the two, but OK. It's still just sophistry with no actual evidence to back it up. As for Exodus being history, it's no more reliable as a historical text than Homer.
sunday Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 1 minute ago, R011 said: I doubt Aristotle made the distinction between the two, but OK. It's still just sophistry with no actual evidence to back it up. Well, Metaphysics is called so because Aristotle wrote of it on the next book after Physics, so yes, he made the distinction. Sophists were the ones engaging in fallacies, esteemed TN member. On historicity of Exodus, see here. On historicity of Homer, there was a German Archaeologist that discovered the remains of Troy following data in the Illiad.
R011 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 Yes Troy existed. They even have a good guess which Troy might be the one in the story. Somewhat less of a hard copy trail on people like Agamemnon, Helen, Achilles, and Paris. Did they find a trace of Athena and the other Gods who feature prominently in the stories?
sunday Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 12 minutes ago, R011 said: Yes Troy existed. They even have a good guess which Troy might be the one in the story. Somewhat less of a hard copy trail on people like Agamemnon, Helen, Achilles, and Paris. Did they find a trace of Athena and the other Gods who feature prominently in the stories? I do not think so, but that was not the point.
MiloMorai Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 2 hours ago, sunday said: I do not think so, especially if we consider, at the least, that the Universe did not appear by itself. Who is to say that our known universe is not a universe inside a bigger universe, like a cell inside a body.
RETAC21 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 30 minutes ago, MiloMorai said: Who is to say that our known universe is not a universe inside a bigger universe, like a cell inside a body. Who's to say that it's not a practical joke between two larger beings? Or more chillingly, the Universe is densely inhabited but the Dark Forest theory applies - According to the theory, the universe is a dark forest and every civilization is a silent armed hunter who is treading very carefully without making any noise. The hunter cannot make his position known and if he does encounter anyone — a predator, another hunter or even a harmless herbivore — the only option he has is to eliminate them.
DB Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, sunday said: I do not think so, especially if we consider, at the least, that the Universe did not appear by itself. On the rest of your post, it should be recalled that for instance, the Ten Commandments appear first in the Old Testament, the Psalms continue being relevant, etc., so it makes sense that the Christian Bible includes both Testaments. On the first part, I deliberately did not speak of the creation of the universe, but implicitly the argument is "given that the universe exists with this set of physical laws, the (further*) intervention of a divine being does not seem to be needed for life to occur". * Word added in parenthesis for agnosticism reasons. On the second part, the New Testament explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments, for example when Jesus was asked which was the greatest of them, so I will weasel my way out of this by suggesting that a cross reference is allowed in these circumstances. All the begats are boring, anyway.
sunday Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DB said: All the begats are boring, anyway. DB, you, as an engineer, should be the first to recognize the importance of boring, seemingly minor details. From the point of view of the Law of Moses, It is important to state that Christ was descendant de David from both the mother line, and the father line. Fair points in the rest of the post. Edited January 16, 2021 by sunday
Ssnake Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 13 hours ago, Rick said: "...amino acids form in interstellar gas clouds." Who formed the amino acid? Who formed the interstellar gas clouds? Who formed the icy comets? "... More and more of the behaviors that were once assumed to be unique to humans are found among animals as well, including tool use, planning, lying, compassion, and even war-like behavioral patterns." Honestly not trying to be argumentative, but how do you define the difference between instinct and planning, of survival and compassion and war-like...?" I'm not here to disprove the existence of god. You're the one who wants to see the meddlings of a creator/designer in everything. I'm content to leave such questions open, as a matter of faith, but would posit that neither icy comets nor gas clouds nor amino acids therein require a creator to explain their existence. As far as instinct vs planning is concerned, you need to start a step earlier and ask how instinct can work in the first place. It's knowledge without learning. The most likely explanation at this point is encoding standardized responses to certain perceptions via epigenetics, but it's still an open question. But just because we don't have the answer yet doesn't mean that we never will. If your strategy is to place proof of god always at the edge of scientific knowledge you set yourself up for failure like a flat (or hollow) earth geographer in the age of discovery, placing the edge of the world (or the entrance to the underworld) always at the edges of charted territory, moving them to a new location with every subsequent survey. The simpler solution always was that the earth is round, and solid, if only you can accept the paradigm shift. There are areas where science deliberately doesn't make any statement, and never will. Like, "what was before the big bang", "is there an 'outside' to our universe". Science will leave these areas alone. You can place god there, and maybe even "in everything", and that he wants people to do good in his name and as a prerequisite must give everybody the capacity to do bad as well, and I'm never going to argue with you about such suppositions. I'm just having trouble with the concept of an all-powerful being that controls everything all of the time, and sets us up in a cruel game where our seven to ten decades long performance is judged by an arbitrary set of rules that is barely hinted at in obscure scribblings, which won't be revealed until after we're dead and have left no option to change course, to be either rewarded or punished for all eternity. That's a pretty long time for a comparatively short sample of behavior, especially considering all the factors working against you like oscillating blood sugar levels which are known to significantly affect one's judgement, and massively different challenges and tasks to solve if you compare the lives of countless humans born prior and after your prophet of choice, and the changes in living conditions over time.
Rick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 18 hours ago, MiloMorai said: Rick, you didn't comment on my God is alien post. 2 Kings2.
Rick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 17 hours ago, R011 said: Why does someone have to supervise normal , natural, chemical and physical reactions? Who created the reactants? It's fairly obvious observing the behavior of animals more developed than bugs that there is some level of cognition going on besides blind instinct. The more intelligent the animal, the closer it is to human behaviors. Again, I don't want to sound harsh, but your point? From memory, a chimpanzee and man have about a high 90% or so of the same D.N.A. Yet the differences are much greater than the similarities. Matthew 10:29-31. You mentioned a scientist giving a 1 in 10^168 chance intelligent life would appear. A billion habitable worlds in a billion galaxies over a billion years is 10^729. Which do you think is more correct. The Bible, more specifically, Jesus,; or how many possible galaxies containing how many possible worlds with how many of these containing your definition of intelligent. You can go back to question then of who created said galaxies, et all.
Rick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 17 hours ago, R011 said: The finch doesn't mutate into a sparrow. It mutates into a finch barely different from its parent. That finch's child mutates into a finch barely different from its parent. After a hundred thousand years or so, the latest generation is still barely differnt from the generation immediately before, but is differnt enough from the first finch we looked at to be a differnt species. Give it a million years and it may not eveI Given the short version definition of species -- are animals that can reproduce sexually and produce fertile offspring -- I don't see how the bold type is possible not to be able to tell the difference from finch 1 to the one 100K years later. What evidence is there that this occured? Similarly with humans, we didn't go directly from Victoriapithicus, the common ancestor of Hominidae which includes the other great Apes like gorillas and chimps, to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. There is 22 million years of evolution until our current species and sub species appeared a hundred thousand years ago. Twenty-two million years of infinitesimal changes build up. Victoriapithicus, afaik, was a monkey ancestor. Nothing I have read realistically states it being the Hominidae ancestor. Every once in a while, Biblical deniers will state a new fossil piece is discovered that proves this fossil bit is the ancestor of man! God created Adam and Eve. What they physically looked like is anyone's guess. Interesting Jewish tradition is that Eve was, in modern terms, drop-dead gorgeous.
Rick Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Ssnake said: I'm not here to disprove the existence of god. You're the one who wants to see the meddlings of a creator/designer in everything. I'm content to leave such questions open, as a matter of faith, but would posit that neither icy comets nor gas clouds nor amino acids therein require a creator to explain their existence. Respectfully disagree. Except for one exception, If something exists, it must have been created. Again, not meaning to sound rude, and if the tone of my posts are so indicative, then I apologize, but God does not "meddle" in everything. He sponsored the owner's manual for the behavior of man. Man's inability to follow God's instructions is not God's fault. Man's faults have been atoned by Jesus. Upon a man's physical death, he will go to either one of two places, smoking or non-smoking As far as instinct vs planning is concerned, you need to start a step earlier and ask how instinct can work in the first place. It's knowledge without learning. The most likely explanation at this point is encoding standardized responses to certain perceptions via epigenetics, but it's still an open question. But just because we don't have the answer yet doesn't mean that we never will. Very fair point. Do people have instincts? If so, can reason "override" said instincts? If your strategy is to place proof of god always at the edge of scientific knowledge you set yourself up for failure like a flat (or hollow) earth geographer in the age of discovery, placing the edge of the world (or the entrance to the underworld) always at the edges of charted territory, moving them to a new location with every subsequent survey. The simpler solution always was that the earth is round, and solid, if only you can accept the paradigm shift. I don't see science and God as being completely incompatible, Genesis 2:19-20. There are areas where science deliberately doesn't make any statement, and never will. Like, "what was before the big bang", "is there an 'outside' to our universe". Science will leave these areas alone. You can place god there, and maybe even "in everything", and that he wants people to do good in his name and as a prerequisite must give everybody the capacity to do bad as well, and I'm never going to argue with you about such suppositions. I'm just having trouble with the concept of an all-powerful being that controls everything all of the time, and sets us up in a cruel game where our seven to ten decades long performance is judged by an arbitrary set of rules that is barely hinted at in obscure scribblings, which won't be revealed until after we're dead and have left no option to change course, to be either rewarded or punished for all eternity. That's a pretty long time for a comparatively short sample of behavior, especially considering all the factors working against you like oscillating blood sugar levels which are known to significantly affect one's judgement, and massively different challenges and tasks to solve if you compare the lives of countless humans born prior and after your prophet of choice, and the changes in living conditions over time. Bolden type -- me too! Let's take your well thought out questions one at a time: ".. all-powerful being that controls everything all of the time,..." all powerful, yes. Control..., not so much. Much of what happens to man, man controls, not God. Or perhaps more accurately, God allows man to live by(suffer from) man's decisions. "...a cruel game where our seven to ten decades long performance is judged by an arbitrary set of rules..." Respectfully disagree on arbitrary rules. Are man's myriad of laws any better, give better results, than the Ten Commandments? "...which won't be revealed until after we're dead and have left no option to change course, to be either rewarded or punished for all eternity." God 's chart if you will, is revealed in the Bible. Is "soul"- tion/ destination is Jesus Christ. Again, eternity with God or an eternity without God. "That's a pretty long time (your life) for a comparatively short sample of behavior, especially considering all the factors working against you." You have all the time that you need. What one does with that time is your free will. "...massively different challenges and tasks to solve if you compare the lives of countless humans born prior and after your prophet of choice, and the changes in living conditions over time." Which for most people is the beginning, middle, and end of there 'massively different challenges.'
R011 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Rick said: Who created God? If God doesn't need a creator, why does the universe?
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 26 minutes ago, R011 said: Who created God? If God doesn't need a creator, why does the universe? Question already answered.
R011 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, sunday said: Question already answered. Circular argument.
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, R011 said: Circular argument. Nope. The clockmaker explanation is an ad infinitum argument, that could not be true. Something is needed to break that infinite secuence, and that Something is an Uncreated Being. Edited January 17, 2021 by sunday
R011 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Yes. The clockmaker ad infiniem is illogical. But if it stops, then stopping at the simplest step - the universe just is without adding additional entities - makes as much sense sa adding a Creator deity somewhere down the line. Just because you claim it is doesn't make it so. Your entire "proof" just boils down to "I say so".
Ivanhoe Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Gents, there is now 3 pages plus of theology in this thread. Any chance you could take this debate to its own theology thread?
RETAC21 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 49 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said: Gents, there is now 3 pages plus of theology in this thread. Any chance you could take this debate to its own theology thread? Isn't this the werid news thread? this argument can go page after page since neither side will accept they may be wrong.
Ssnake Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 5 hours ago, Rick said: Respectfully disagree on arbitrary rules. Are man's myriad of laws any better, give better results, than the Ten Commandments? How can we know that the Ten Commandments are the true set of rules? You're using a faith-based argument to support a faith-based decision. There's countless other religions that claim to be the real one. Even if one subscribes to the theory that the Bible is the direct word of God, it has undergone numerous editing steps, so who am I to decide which of the variants is the true one. The one that "speaks to me"? The prettiest/most impressive leather bound one? The one I like best? Pre-Nicean, or post-nicean? Catholic, or Protestant? King James, or Luther's? I grant you there's considerable overlap but as a rule book by which one decides one's fate in the afterlife, it definitely sucks. If god isn't the one you think he is but insists on being the oly one, every prayer to someone else is just going to irate him even more.
Ssnake Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 And what about people who were born even before the Bible was written, are they all denied access to the paradise? How's that just?
sunday Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Ssnake, you could have a look here, and find answers to all those questions. Also, among the different Christian sects and denominations, only the RCC claims that there is no Salvation outside of the Church. Of course, there are nominal Catholics that are outside of the Church, like most heretics, and there are people that are not Catholic but would join the Church were they know of it. Few of the later remain, of course. Edited January 17, 2021 by sunday
bd1 Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 47 minutes ago, Ssnake said: How can we know that the Ten Commandments are the true set of rules? https://external-preview.redd.it/GaUaGvpL_Z3Ux8QOTgOKOJOQdbMBZ93mhnWj_hQJwPA.gif?format=mp4&s=9827fc813f73e4961680d788240ca929fb075ef0
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