weird news morphing into theology debate

[RETAC21]

32 minutes ago, sunday said:

That is only an unproved hypotheses. We know there is intelligent life in the Universe, ours, but we do not know how life or intelligence appeared.

It could have been someone emptying a septic tank in Earth

 

[R011]

That should have read "billions of galaxies", not "fallacies".

We actually have a pretty good idea of how, and as I said with billions of billions of worlds over billions of years, it should not be surprising that it has happened at least once.  Eventually, we will have a chance to see how rare or common this is.

[sunday]

Just now, R011 said:

Eventually, we will have a chance to see how rare or common this is.

Well, there could be a chance or not. It is possible this question will remain unanswered.

In the meanwhile, we do not have much data on the matter.

[Ssnake]

Well, we do know about 4,400 planets in the immediate neighborhood of our sun, and we know that there are a lot more smaller ones (which the James Webb Telescope will help finding, once it's up and operational). The majority of the planets we found so far are much bigger than Earth, but 1,000 of the known 4,400 are no larger than twice the Earth's diameter.

A conservative estimation yields 24 roughly earth-sized extrasolar planets inside the habitable zone, 14 of which yield a better ESI score than Venus. So, the lower boundary for estimations is of "potentially habitable planets as we know them" is .32%, but it's pretty likely that it's much higher than that (we just can't detect them yet, but this is a known unknown). This suggests more than three million habitable planets in the Milky Way alone.

Life on Earth is about 1.5 billion years old We can't say yet whether life is unique on Earth, or more or less ubiquituous in the universe. We do know that amino acids form in interstellar gas clouds. We know that icy comets have a layer of complex organic (=carbon based) molecules even while far beyond Pluto, and they collide with planets all the time. If the necessary starting ingredients like amino acids accumulate on comet surfaces and are then transported to planets with oceans, it's quite possible that this is the seeding mechanisms for the earliest and most primitive monocellular lifeforms.

As soon as we find some alien bacterium outside of Earth - perhaps in the ocean of Europa - the overwhelming likelihood will be that life actually isn't unique and will occur pretty much anywhere in the universe, given suitably hospitable conditions.

I'm having a hard time believing that Earth is spectacularly special in the universe. Whatever argument was made that Earth and humans were special over the past millenia, the recurring theme is that we are not. The universe does not revolve around Earth. The Universe is vastly bigger than our solar system. Biologically, man is not spectacularly different from other animals. And we've just arrived on this planet, speaking in geological terms. More and more of the behaviors that were once assumed to be unique to humans are found among animals as well, including tool use, planning, lying, compassion, and even war-like behavioral patterns.

If life emerges everywhere, there is no reason to believe that where particularly benign conditions prevail (such as on on earth-like planets) intelligent beings will eventually emerge from the blind process of evolutionary selection. Could well be that even technological civilizations are common, but that there's a big unknown Fermi filter ahead of us (that is the scary thought). Could well be that interstellar travel is much, much harder than we currently think (and most people underestimate the difficulties spectacularly), and that this is the reason for the Fermi paradox.

It's a pity that I won't live long enough to see if we will find life under the ice crust of Europa. But I would be more surprised if we didn't.

[Rick]

22 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

I am no Atheist, but I don't mix science (the observable, proven world) with faith (by definition, unprovable)

Mitsuo Fuchida and Jacob DeShazer.

I don't need to show how chance happens to know it exists: flip a coin 100 times and you will approximately get 50 heads and 50 tails, but the result of each toss will be determined by a multitude of factors (weight, air resistance, gravity, etc. ) none of which require an intelligent designer but all of which will have an impact on the final result.

How many times has the coin of life been flipped in the whole Universe? billions upon billions, and we only know of one successful outcome. Does that prove there's a designer? no, does it prove there isn't a designer? no. It also means that it is probable that life has sprung in more than one place, but is not proven so far.

Re Should: we know there isn't life on every planet in the Solar System, this is an observed result, faith will not change that.

And I don't need faith to tell me life can appear by chance, mathematics and the observed result (there's life on Earth) demostrates it can.

I think probability is a more honest word than chance. Two examples:

Astrophysicist Hugh Ross calculated that the probability for life to develop by chance would be 10 to the 138th. 
Nobel Laureate Arno Penzias, "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing and delicately balanced to provide exactly the conditions required to support life. In the absence of an absurdly improbable accident (chance), the observations of modern science seem to suggest an underlying, one might say, supernatural plan." Or in other words, Psalm 19:1.

Re design: no, there's not a designer for every design. Re evolution the coronavirus is evolving before your eyes, and it doesn't need a designer, just evolution to become better adapted at the human host.

Define evolve? A coronavirus can only change from one kind of coronavirus to another kind of coronavirus. For example, Darwin's finch beaks can mutate from smaller to larger, the finch itself cannot change into a sparrow. 

Re religion, all fine, so I guess Jews Buddhists, and other infidels (including those before JC was born) are condemned to Hell then...

I personally do not know, however I do know this; John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

 

[MiloMorai]

TWO SPACEMEN -

THE PROPHET ENOCH and THE PROPHET ELIJAH.

The bible tells us that God took away the Prophet Enoch from Planet Earth. The Book of Hebrews specifically elaborates upon this, as Enoch is an important prophet, as Jude (commonly believed to be the physical brother of Jesus) mentions an End Time prophecy by him.

The same thing happened to the prophet Elijah, who was taken up in a chariot of fire.

In the ascension into heaven Jesus appears to have done the same thing.

BIBLE SPACEMEN | faroutro (wixsite.com)

God is an alien?

[Rick]

17 hours ago, R011 said:

You misunderstand.  Species A [b]does[/b] turn into Species B.  It just doesn't happen all at once and takes a very long time. Evidence?

As for the current, temporary, state of the Earth and humanity somehow being proof of define intervention, that's a fallacial argument.  It assumes we have a end state that must have been planned, otherwise how could we have got to it?  Post hoc ergo propter hoc. 

Firstly, there is no end state.  As is everything, we are in a transitional mode.  We'll always be in a transitional mode.  That we are more or less suited to our environment is always going to be the case or we'd be extinct or have never existed. 

Revelation 1:8 

That we are intelligent - well, it's a big universe.  Intelligence is going to show up somewhere in the billions of galaxies with billions of inhabitable star systems over billions of years.  We just happen to luck out.  Someone/thing had too.

John 3, especially John 3;16-18,  For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Rick]

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Well, we do know about 4,400 planets in the immediate neighborhood of our sun, and we know that there are a lot more smaller ones (which the James Webb Telescope will help finding, once it's up and operational). The majority of the planets we found so far are much bigger than Earth, but 1,000 of the known 4,400 are no larger than twice the Earth's diameter.

A conservative estimation yields 24 roughly earth-sized extrasolar planets inside the habitable zone, 14 of which yield a better ESI score than Venus. So, the lower boundary for estimations is of "potentially habitable planets as we know them" is .32%, but it's pretty likely that it's much higher than that (we just can't detect them yet, but this is a known unknown). This suggests more than three million habitable planets in the Milky Way alone.

Life on Earth is about 1.5 billion years old We can't say yet whether life is unique on Earth, or more or less ubiquituous in the universe. We do know that amino acids form in interstellar gas clouds. We know that icy comets have a layer of complex organic (=carbon based) molecules even while far beyond Pluto, and they collide with planets all the time. If the necessary starting ingredients like amino acids accumulate on comet surfaces and are then transported to planets with oceans, it's quite possible that this is the seeding mechanisms for the earliest and most primitive monocellular lifeforms.

As soon as we find some alien bacterium outside of Earth - perhaps in the ocean of Europa - the overwhelming likelihood will be that life actually isn't unique and will occur pretty much anywhere in the universe, given suitably hospitable conditions.

I'm having a hard time believing that Earth is spectacularly special in the universe. Whatever argument was made that Earth and humans were special over the past millenia, the recurring theme is that we are not. The universe does not revolve around Earth. The Universe is vastly bigger than our solar system. Biologically, man is not spectacularly different from other animals. And we've just arrived on this planet, speaking in geological terms. More and more of the behaviors that were once assumed to be unique to humans are found among animals as well, including tool use, planning, lying, compassion, and even war-like behavioral patterns.

If life emerges everywhere, there is no reason to believe that where particularly benign conditions prevail (such as on on earth-like planets) intelligent beings will eventually emerge from the blind process of evolutionary selection. Could well be that even technological civilizations are common, but that there's a big unknown Fermi filter ahead of us (that is the scary thought). Could well be that interstellar travel is much, much harder than we currently think (and most people underestimate the difficulties spectacularly), and that this is the reason for the Fermi paradox.

It's a pity that I won't live long enough to see if we will find life under the ice crust of Europa. But I would be more surprised if we didn't.

 "...amino acids form in interstellar gas clouds." Who formed the amino acid? Who formed the interstellar gas clouds? Who formed the icy comets?

"... More and more of the behaviors that were once assumed to be unique to humans are found among animals as well, including tool use, planning, lying, compassion, and even war-like behavioral patterns." Honestly not trying to be argumentative, but how do you define the difference between instinct and planning, of survival and compassion and war-like...?"

Again, not meaning to sound harsh, but your post is about multiple possible assumptions made by chance. Kind of like the Alternative History post of Germany not invading the U.S.S.R. 

[Rick]

21 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Why is the Christian god the superior god?

This is actually not a flippant question. For one example among many --https://www.pdfdrive.com/seeking-allah-finding-jesus-a-devout-muslim-encounters-christianity-e196281233.html

[MiloMorai]

3 hours ago, Rick said:

This is actually not a flippant question. For one example among many --https://www.pdfdrive.com/seeking-allah-finding-jesus-a-devout-muslim-encounters-christianity-e196281233.html

It wasn't meant to be.

[Rick]

43 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

It wasn't meant to be.

Neither is the answer.

[MiloMorai]

Rick, you didn't comment on my God is alien post.

[R011]

5 hours ago, Rick said:

Who formed the amino acid? Who formed the interstellar gas clouds? Who formed the icy comets?

Why does someone have to supervise normal , natural, chemical and physical reactions?

Quote

 Honestly not trying to be argumentative, but how do you define the difference between instinct and planning, of survival and compassion and war-like...?"

 

It's fairly obvious observing the behavior of animals more developed than bugs that there is some level of cognition going on besides blind instinct.  The more intelligent the animal, the closer it is to human behaviors.

Quote

Again, not meaning to sound harsh, but your post is about multiple possible assumptions made by chance. Kind of like the Alternative History post of Germany not invading the U.S.S.R. 

You mentioned a scientist giving a 1 in 10^168 chance intelligent life would appear.  A billion habitable worlds in a billion galaxies over a billion years is 10^729.

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

You mentioned a scientist giving a 1 in 10^168 chance intelligent life would appear.  A billion habitable worlds in a billion galaxies over a billion years is 10^729.

Are both figures in the same units? Because one billion (american) times three is 10^27, and one billion (SI) times three is 10^36.

[R011]

6 hours ago, Rick said:

Define evolve? A coronavirus can only change from one kind of coronavirus to another kind of coronavirus. For example, Darwin's finch beaks can mutate from smaller to larger, the finch itself cannot change into a sparrow. 

The finch doesn't mutate into a sparrow.  It mutates into a finch barely different from its parent.  That finch's child mutates  into a finch barely different from its parent.  After a hundred thousand years or so, the latest generation is still barely differnt from the generation immediately before, but is differnt enough from the first finch we looked at to be a differnt species. Give it a million years and it may not even be the same genus.

Similarly with humans, we didn't go directly from Victoriapithicus, the common ancestor of Hominidae which includes the other great Apes like gorillas and chimps, to Homo Sapiens Sapiens.  There is 22 million years of evolution until our current species and sub species appeared a hundred thousand years ago.  Twenty-two million years of infinitesimal changes build up.

Edited January 16, 2021 by R011

[DB]

Even if science proves that life can appear by chance, and apparently has in numerous independent locations, it neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. It merely shows that God may not be a necessary condition for life to form.

And it doesn't matter, if God exists and the general principles of Christian doctrine apply, then it's human behaviours that decide your fate, not the exact mechanism by which you were formed.

I find a slavish interpretation of the Old Testament is a bit bizarre. Christianity is supposed to be predicated on the teachings of Christ, and on my superficial interpretation those are mainly behavioural guidance and don't really need the Old Testament as support.

I'm fine with following most if not all of the behavioural guidance. I wish it were not so regarding taxes, but that's another story.

Edited January 16, 2021 by DB
Bold spelling correction

[sunday]

4 minutes ago, DB said:

It merely shows that God may not be a necessary condition for life to form.

I do not think so, especially if we consider, at the least, that the Universe did not appear by itself.

On the rest of your post, it should be recalled that for instance, the Ten Commandments appear first in the Old Testament, the Psalms continue being relevant, etc., so it makes sense that the Christian Bible includes both Testaments.

[R011]

5 minutes ago, sunday said:

I do not think so, especially if we consider, at the least, that the Universe did not appear by itself.

If God created the universe, who created God?  If God needs no creator then why does the universe?  That doesn't necessarily mean there is no God, but it does mean that the clockmaker argument for His existence has a big flaw in it.

Ads far as we can tell, the universe needs no guiding hand or Creator to exist.  If there is a Creator, then He has set it up this way.  If He's loading the dice, we can't tell, and that's must be how he wants it if He exists.  

 

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

If God created the universe, who created God? 

Nobody, because He is God. He is Who He is. 

He is the only uncreated being, the One for which His existence belongs to His essence, He is the Aristotelian Prime Mover.

Edited January 16, 2021 by sunday

[R011]

1 minute ago, sunday said:

Nobody, He is the only uncreated being, the One for which His existence belongs to His essence, the Aristotelian Prime Mover.

Or so you believe.  that's nice, but your unsupported belief is not a proof.

God's existence is a matter of faith, not evidence. 

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, R011 said:

Or so you believe.  that's nice, but your unsupported belief is not a proof.

God's existence is a matter of faith, not evidence. 

Aristotle the heathen philosopher would disagree with you, and Exodus is one of the historical books of the Bible.

Of course, God's existence needs to be hidden a bit, but He gave us intelligence to discover Him, through His creatures, for instance. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by sunday

[Jeff]

I have zero problem reconciling science and faith. I think the spectacular varied reality of the Universe is a far more elegant statement of God than some Being snapping his fingers and saying "there, done".

[R011]

4 minutes ago, sunday said:

Aristotle the heathen philosopher would disagree with you.

He also believed the sun revolved around the earth.  He might not be my go-to guy on cosmology.

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

He also believed the sun revolved around the earth.  He might not be my go-to guy on cosmology.

Ah, the handy ad hominem fallacy...

You know Newton's Laws of physics are wrong because they do not take in account Relativity, do you?

Edited January 16, 2021 by sunday

[R011]

Just now, sunday said:

Ah, the handy ad hominem fallacy...

You know Newton's Laws are wrong because they do not take in account Relativity, do you?

And yours was an argument from authority.  A counter to that is to show that the authority, in fact, is not one.  Ad hominem would be if I said Aristotle wasn't an authority because he was gay (true or not) or some such irrelevancy. 

 

And yes, I know that about Newton and why his laws do not apply in some special circumstances. I wouldn't quote him on quantum physics or other areas of science in which he's now known to have been incorrect.