M1897 75mm Question

[shootER5]

Any idea what the protrusions near the muzzle are for? 

 

The question came up on another board and I didn't know the answer.

[DougRichards]

Hogg notes that the 75mm Gun 1897: "Because of the long recoil movement (which the gun had pioneered) the muzzle carried a reinforcing band with two rollers beneath it: these engaged in the cradle slides during the later part of the recoil stroke, and supported the gun in alignment  with the cradle.  Without these the breech would have sagged down at the end of the recoil stroke and the cradle guides would have been strained and deformed."

Edited January 9, 2021 by DougRichards
spelling

[shootER5]

40 minutes ago, DougRichards said:

Hogg notes that the 75mm Gun 1897: "Because of the long recoil movement (which the gun had pioneered) the muzzle carried a reinforcing band with two rollers beneath it: these engaged in the cradle slides during the later part of the recoil stroke, and supported the gun in alignment  with the cradle.  Without these the breech would have sagged down at the end of the recoil stroke and the cradle guides would have been strained and deformed."

 

Thank you. That makes sense.

What changed so that they were removed in later models of the gun?

[DougRichards]

29 minutes ago, shootER5 said:

 

Thank you. That makes sense.

What changed so that they were removed in later models of the gun?

M1897 A4 Muzzle rollers removed and replaced by steel rails and bronze strips.

The M1897 A2 appears to have the rollers or similar fitting about a quarter of the barrel length from the muzzle. 

It is likely that other 'variants' of this gun were not really variants but new designs that shared only the ammunition and general principles with the original weapon.  for instance the 75mm Gun M1917 was actually the British 18pdr relined to 75mm and chambered for the "French' round. 

[shootER5]

Thanks for the info!

[Rick]

4 hours ago, DougRichards said:

M1897 A4 Muzzle rollers removed and replaced by steel rails and bronze strips.

The M1897 A2 appears to have the rollers or similar fitting about a quarter of the barrel length from the muzzle. 

It is likely that other 'variants' of this gun were not really variants but new designs that shared only the ammunition and general principles with the original weapon.  for instance the 75mm Gun M1917 was actually the British 18pdr relined to 75mm and chambered for the "French' round. 

Did the M1917 see any use in W.W.2?

[R011]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Did the M1917 see any use in W.W.2?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_gun_M1917

[DougRichards]

10 hours ago, Rick said:

Did the M1917 see any use in W.W.2?

Interesting question that we may never be able to answer as British bookkeeping may have been deficient in late 1940 when the US sold a large number of 75mm guns to the British.  One version was known as the Ord, QF 75mm Converted Mk 1, which was the US 75mm Gun M1917.

This was at a time that anything that could shoot reasonably was taken in, and many had their carriage cut away and used as beach defence guns, which really freed up what the British had already, ie the 18pdr gun, for field duties or conversions to 18/25pdrs. 

Whilst vaguely possible that some of the US M1917 guns (having been based on the 18pdr) may have been converted to 18/25pdr guns it would seem unlikely.

After WW1 it is also likely that the US would have quietly put away the M1917, and were happy to get rid of them to the British rather than use themselves.

Edited January 9, 2021 by DougRichards
dates

[R011]

Probably didn't see combat service with the British Army.  They seemed to have enough 25 pounders for Africa  and Asia in place.  Finnish and Greek ones almost certainly did.  Ironically, the Finns used theirs to help our enemies.

[shep854]

Wasn't this the parent, several steps removed of the 75mm used in the Sherman?

[bojan]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

Probably didn't see combat service with the British Army...

IIRC British possibly forwarded some to Yugoslav partisans, but it is murky which exact version would that be as only source says "English 75mm gun".

[Markus Becker]

17 hours ago, Rick said:

Did the M1917 see any use in W.W.2?

Was that the one given to the Philippine Army or did they get some old 3" field gun? 

[DougRichards]

15 hours ago, shep854 said:

Wasn't this the parent, several steps removed of the 75mm used in the Sherman?

Only that it fired the same ammunition (sort of - AP was not one of the usual shells of the 1897, well not until well after 1897.....\]

[shep854]

6 hours ago, DougRichards said:

Only that it fired the same ammunition (sort of - AP was not one of the usual shells of the 1897, well not until well after 1897.....\]

Thanks

[DougRichards]

Indeed the number of US (and other) weapons that fired the 75mm shell, in its various incarnations, are legion.  The M1 75mm Howitzer fired the same shell but with a lessened charge in the case, but still adequate so that in one instance when the USMC tankers ran out of 75mm rounds for their M4 Shermans they were able to fire 75mm Howitzer ammunition, of course at lower velocities and ranges, but I doubt that the Japanese occupants of bunkers being hit by a 75mm howitzer round fired from a Sherman at a range of around 200 metres would have paused and thought about the difference.

The M1 75mm howitzer also fired a HEAT round, which is a bit last ditch defence, but the weapon was also carried in a modified form by the M8 HMC and of course the LVT(A)-4 amtank.   The rounds supplied for the US 75mm Recoiless Rifle were also those of the 75mm Howitzer, in both HE and HEAT, but with pre engraved bands to suit the rifling at the lower velocity of the RR.

The M24 Chaffee mounted a 75mm gun, which fired the same round as that of the M4, but was a very different gun.  A similar gun was mounted on a version of the B-25 Mitchell bomber.

The 75mm M1897 was mounted on US half tracks as a tank destroyer, the T12.

Of course the British used the same ammunition in a rebarrelled version (sort of) of the 6pdr tank gun.  I have wondered sometimes as to whether, when the British tried building, unsuccessfully, a 95mm infantry howitzer whether simply rebuilding old 6pdr guns with the 75mm barrel would not have been better.  Of course the shell would have been much lighter, and you would not have the charge and range variability, but it could have been useful, with a back up AT capability if things went pear shaped.

Of course the French used the same ammunition as the basic 1897 gun, as did the Polish whose AT round was adopted by the Germans for the Pak 97/38.

So there may have been times where different sides (ie French v the USA and British) where both sides were flinging the same shells at each other.

 

 

[shep854]

Yep, and then there was that time in N. Africa when the Brits reloaded German 7.5cm AP shells into their own cases.

[RichTO90]

2 hours ago, shep854 said:

Yep, and then there was that time in N. Africa when the Brits reloaded German 7.5cm AP shells into their own cases.

Not Brits, it was American Ordnance officer George Jarrett, working with an Australian Ordnance officer, Major Northy.

[DougRichards]

4 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

Not Brits, it was American Ordnance officer George Jarrett, working with an Australian Ordnance officer, Major Northy.

Didn't they have to lathe them down a little, taking care that the turning would not cause problems with the fuzes, as there were 'unsafed' by the spin imparted by firing in a rifled barrel?

[sunday]

3 minutes ago, DougRichards said:

Didn't they have to lathe them down a little, taking care that the turning would not cause problems with the fuzes, as there were 'unsafed' by the spin imparted by firing in a rifled barrel?

Usually, fired projectiles spin at angular velocities several orders of magnitude higher that the ones used in machining. That fuze arming by putting the shells on a lathe could be perfectly one of those tall tales.

Edited January 12, 2021 by sunday

[bojan]

Also fuses are removable.

[RichTO90]

1 hour ago, DougRichards said:

Didn't they have to lathe them down a little, taking care that the turning would not cause problems with the fuzes, as there were 'unsafed' by the spin imparted by firing in a rifled barrel?

Nope. They had to turn down the driving bands to mate them to the American cartridge.

[shep854]

Thanks for the details; it's been a long time and I read about it in Arch Whitehouse's book TANK from the early '60s.

 

[DogDodger]

Although to be fair, Major Northy was serving with the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps, no?

[RichTO90]

1 hour ago, DogDodger said:

Although to be fair, Major Northy was serving with the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps, no?

Maybe, but after diligent searching I can only tell you his supposed nationality, rank, and last name.

[shep854]

11 hours ago, DogDodger said:

Although to be fair, Major Northy was serving with the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps, no?

My fading memory is that yes, he was US Army serving as an advisor to the British.