BAOR ORBAT Version 9

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, im dubious those Buccaneers retained a nuclear role late on. They were a primary laser designation unit.

Its also missing at least one Buccaneer squadron in the UK that was retained in the antishipping role with Sea Eagle. Ive a feeling it was more than one, but I would have to hit the books.

[madhon]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:49 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, im dubious those Buccaneers retained a nuclear role late on. They were a primary laser designation unit.

Its also missing at least one Buccaneer squadron in the UK that was retained in the antishipping role with Sea Eagle. Ive a feeling it was more than one, but I would have to hit the books.

Correct, 12 and 208 Squadrons where operating the Buccaneer from Lossiemouth in the Maritime strike role

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thanks.

I only remembered that because, somewhere around the early 1990's, they were replaced by Tornado GR1B in the maritime attack role, equipped with Sea Eagle. Briefly, because somewhere around the mid 1990s, Sea Eagle was withdrawn and not replaced.

[Darth Stalin]

18 hours ago, madhon said:

Correct, 12 and 208 Squadrons where operating the Buccaneer from Lossiemouth in the Maritime strike role

NOTHING is missng about Buccaneers 😁

Quote

Reinforcements:
No 237 Squadron: 9 Buccaneer S2 with peacetime training role. In wartime would probably deploy to Europe to buddy base with Dutch F-16A and RAFG aircraft. Retained nuke role with WE177.

No 12 and No 208 were Uk based for anti shipping (12 a/c each)

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just thought you all might find this interesting.

 

 

[Intrepid_Hants]

Quote

 

I'm guessing this only the regular airborne brigade. 44 Parachute Brigade (Disbanded in 78) was still around at the time, but I'm not sure of its wartime role.  Highly unlikely both to be mashed together for a demi-division too. 

Edited August 6 by Intrepid_Hants

[Stuart Galbraith]

I heard from someone who frequented this site over a decade ago, they had a field force that had some para's in it, put together as a blocking force in challenging terrain for armour. Cant remember the number of the Field Force though. Memory seems to say 6, but thats almost certainly wrong.

Interesting subject anyway.

[GJK]

Perhaps they were referring to the Parachute Regiment Group of 3 x TA para battalions, formed in 1989 to defend Hildesheim?

[Stuart Galbraith]

IIRC, they were talking about a field force formed sometime in the 1970's.

[GJK]

In that case I'm a few years out!

Best,

Greg.

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 8/20/2024 at 5:21 PM, GJK said:

Perhaps they were referring to the Parachute Regiment Group of 3 x TA para battalions, formed in 1989 to defend Hildesheim?

Re your point about Hildesheim..

 

[GJK]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:58 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Re your point about Hildesheim..

 

This may well have been the inspiration for the Para Gp almost two decades later, albeit with TA battalions, not the airborne brigade 

Best,

Greg.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There is probably a book, just in this emerging war plan I think.

Its surprising how little there is on BAOR warplans, so its good at least this survived.

[LouieD]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:49 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, im dubious those Buccaneers retained a nuclear role late on. They were a primary laser designation unit.

Its also missing at least one Buccaneer squadron in the UK that was retained in the antishipping role with Sea Eagle. Ive a feeling it was more than one, but I would have to hit the books.

From what the Old & Bold tell me a lot was destroyed after Wall Fall. One reason was “hey we don’t need it anymore” but I have been told by multiple Staff Officers that there were plans to go EAST in certain scenarios (Poland staging a revolution, Second Berlin Blockade, counterstrokes over the IGB, etc.) that certain people at the National level did not want to see the light of day. 
Until March 2022 the MOD has been good (probably me pestering them!) with dropping files at Kew. However since the Ukraine War nothing has been dropped and my FOI’s are being denied on security grounds. That said there are some files at Kew that have multiple parts, for instance I have a Part A of a reservist study that ends July 1989. When I inquired about Part B I was told it had been destroyed.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was a story I heard (maybe it was from you) that a lot of cold war files were dumped on the MOD because someone, pre 2022, was doing a study to convince officialdom we needed to expand the RAC, and then when they were done and the evaulation ran into the cold hard wall of political indifference, they were all disposed of. I hope that isnt true. I suspect it probably is.

I find that very interesting. It strongly suggests something survived. Or at least, they fucked up and are trying to cover it up.

 

 

[LouieD]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There was a story I heard (maybe it was from you) that a lot of cold war files were dumped on the MOD because someone, pre 2022, was doing a study to convince officialdom we needed to expand the RAC, and then when they were done and the evaulation ran into the cold hard wall of political indifference, they were all disposed of. I hope that isnt true. I suspect it probably is.

I find that very interesting. It strongly suggests something survived. Or at least, they fucked up and are trying to cover it up.

 

 

Mungo Melvin pulled the last GDP Plan (1989) out for Ex United Shield 08/09. He wrote a pretty extensive Staff Ride booklet focused on NATO/Warsaw Pact Plans. The Mandarins at the MOD had their feather ruffled because “The future is COIN!” “ Armor is extinct!”. So I was told that the MOD civvies pulled everything Mungo Melvin  used and disposed of it.

However the booklet, ARRCADE Planner, seemed to have survived in the file cabinets and attics of several Staff Officers who attended. Furthermore it seems that one file, DEFE 70/2073 1 BR Corps Admin Orders 1/90, seemed to have escaped their clutches. 
I have the file from Kew and for the other, well….I couldn’t possibly comment!

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well im glad people seem to be noting the essentials, even if the MOD are being cussedly stupid about getting rid of things.

Incidentally, have you ever looked into the Wintex exercises? They were predominantly Home office I think, but seem from the recent documents I downloaded, to have a greater MOD component than I expected.

 

[LouieD]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well im glad people seem to be noting the essentials, even if the MOD are being cussedly stupid about getting rid of things.

Incidentally, have you ever looked into the Wintex exercises? They were predominantly Home office I think, but seem from the recent documents I downloaded, to have a greater MOD component than I expected.

 

Kew has about 52 WINTEX files from the 1980’s, it looks like they are all from Foreign & Commonwealth Office

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, looking at DEFE-5-196-7 there was perhaps some confusion on my part. I did a search under Wintex and got a report for Wintex73, Firm Sand/Broken Pledge. It would appear that NATO was using the title  before the  Home office started using it. I was assuming it was the same exercise with military participation, but it isnt! It is interesting  in that it gives some detail on a the reinforcement of UKMF.

If you ever want an interesting read, take a look at CAB-130-801, which is Wintex 75, a Home Office exercise on the transition to war in Europe, specifically the measures undertake in the UK. Another version I read (I think it may have been 73) lots of interesting stuff on arresting trotskyists, or anyone striking stopping the usage of the ports to reinforce Europe. It really brings home to you what a basket case the country was in the 1970's. Its not changed much.