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BAOR ORBAT Version 9


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On 1/24/2021 at 10:26 AM, LouieD said:

 (the U.S. had extensive plans and would have been putting the M-1 Abrams factories on 24-hour shifts for instance. We also had extensive plans to start churning out boatloads of ammo !)

That's a topic I've been curious about myself recently. I don't suppose you could point me toward some sources on that?

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23 hours ago, WRW said:

Does not sound like them. I had notes on them 30 years ago but cannot locate or recall.

Who did singing in NI?

Sigint not singing bah

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4 hours ago, James1978 said:

That's a topic I've been curious about myself recently. I don't suppose you could point me toward some sources on that?

I remember reading some of the Appropriations Committee minutes from the 1980's, I seem to recall it was buried in one of them. If you give me a few I can try to find it.

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6 hours ago, LouieD said:

I remember reading some of the Appropriations Committee minutes from the 1980's, I seem to recall it was buried in one of them. If you give me a few I can try to find it.

I'd appreciate that. Thank you!

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On 1/29/2021 at 10:35 AM, WRW said:

Sorry that should be 12 and 13 companies. 12 definetly NI probably running Vengeful IT and other such systems. 13 not sure but think also NI . Maybe Humint but am guessing

225 Signal Sqn did the radio intercepts

12 Intelligence and Security Coy provided the normal sections to the three resident Bdes

14 Intelligence and Security Coy (which is now the Special Reconnaissance Regt) were the HUMINT and plainclothes surveillance unit. They didn't officially exist so you don't normally find them in any unit listings.

There was also:

Force Intell Unit 

Joint Comms Unit

Joint Support Gp  (formerly the Force Research Unit) recruited and ran agents and informants, like the Double-Cross System from WW2.

These had elements of the previous three attached along with RN/RM, RAF, RUC, and, most likely, MI5 and MI6 personnel.

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Greatly appreciated.

A real alphabet of units. I may be mixing 13 coy with the now JSG.

 

Edited by WRW
Crap spelling
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/23/2021 at 10:34 PM, LouieD said:

@Darth Stalin

Perusing some more documents......

"UKLF Concepts and Equipment Committee Level 2 Enhancements:

Serial 4  Allocation of an armoured regiment for UKMF (The Tidworth Proposal)

Manpower: 65         Target Date: 1990

The proposal generates a RHQ, 3x armd sqns, and 1x med recce sqn from a reroling of current recce regt. An additional 44 MBT (33 UE + 11 WMR) are required. These will be found from Chieftain assets on establishment of 7th Challenger regiment. The manpower bill is being reviewed."

 

Again thanks a lot Louie!

This raises 2questions:

1) what are "UE" and "WMR" tanks?

2) what would be the role of that medium recce sqn? Would it be kept as parto UKMF's reco unt, as it was supposed to operate independently? Or could be used elsewhere?

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On 2/10/2021 at 6:46 AM, Darth Stalin said:

Again thanks a lot Louie!

This raises 2questions:

1) what are "UE" and "WMR" tanks?

2) what would be the role of that medium recce sqn? Would it be kept as parto UKMF's reco unt, as it was supposed to operate independently? Or could be used elsewhere?

UE = Unit Equipment @demobbed check me on that. Basically the tanks on use every day with crews. 11 would be in store and manned on Transition to War

WMR = War Maintenance Reserve 

see above, WMR also refers to equipment available to replace losses (mechanical or in battle)

If I had to guess, the Med Recce Sqn would still be assigned as the AMF (L) Recce Sqn

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, LouieD said:

UE = Unit Equipment @demobbed check me on that. Basically the tanks on use every day with crews. 11 would be in store and manned on Transition to War

Probably Unit Establishment. Units are equipped to "Unit Establishment Tables".

WMR = War Maintenance Reserve 

see above, WMR also refers to equipment available to replace losses (mechanical or in battle)

If I had to guess, the Med Recce Sqn would still be assigned as the AMF (L) Recce Sqn

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/1/2021 at 2:55 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Im sure you have all already seen this, but if not, you might find it interesting.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040518023853/http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/uk/uk_toe.pdf

Yes Stuart I have a copy. I am planning on adding an appendix to my BAOR doc with schematics of the teeth arm units based on the SOHB. I would just reproduce them but I think there is/would be some Crown Copyright issues and I would like to add my own notes (ie the Support Coy’s HQ in AI & MI Bns were structured like the Rifle Coys and it was intended that they could function, in wartime, as a fourth rifle Coy ......this is the reason why the were four MILAN Secs & four Mortar Secs)

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  • 1 year later...

Hey @LouieD,

Found this in a book im reading about the RCT, you may want to add it as a note on the war role of 7th Tank Transporter Regiment.

 

Quote

One of the first movements planned for 1 (BR) Corps when deploying for war was the use of 16 Tank Transporter Squadron at Fallingbostel to move the only RE Armoured Engineer Regiment of 1 (BR) Corps from its peace time base at Munsterlager. This location was outside the Corps area of operations and the lift required some forty-eight Centurion AVREs and ‘Op rigged’ (bridges mounted) Centurion and Chieftain AVLB into the GDP area. After deploying the Armoured Engineers, 16 Squadron would then concentrate upon Sennelager where all three Tank Transporter Squadrons were needed to deploy 1 (BR) Corps Covering Force armour from their peacetime barracks to the forward locations. Having deployed the Covering Force, all transporters would move westwards for a second time to pick up and deploy the armour of the Main Defensive Battle, which, if time was short, would already have started to move from its various barracks on its own tracks. Two regimental lifts were required to complete this deployment. 

The tank transporters had one final but unquantifiable role and that was to recover battle-damaged tanks from the Covering Force battle at the east side of the Corps deployment area and transport these westwards, so that REME could then repair them. The tanks would then be available to deploy as part of the all-important final Corps Counter-Stroke battle. Tank recovery is a slow operation and if the Corps had gone to war there is little doubt that, in the fast-moving Covering Force battle, successful tank recovery on any large scale would have been a considerable problem.
 

This is taken from the Book  Wait for the Waggon: The Story of the Royal Corps of Transport and Its Predecessors, 1794–1993, by D J. Sutton

 

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 2:30 AM, madhon said:

Hey @LouieD,

Found this in a book im reading about the RCT, you may want to add it as a note on the war role of 7th Tank Transporter Regiment.

 

This is taken from the Book  Wait for the Waggon: The Story of the Royal Corps of Transport and Its Predecessors, 1794–1993, by D J. Sutton

 

 

@madhon

thank you! I have to dig the book out of my archives but I will include it. 
I I am working on the next version, I have received a ton of information on the GDP89 (unfortunately not unit specific deployments) which I am trying to add. 
 

 

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  • 1 year later...

@LouieD a bit overdue, but many thanks for your terrific work on the the BAOR OR AT.  I am particularly interested in the latter years of the Cold War, so your excellent work is a valuable reference.

Best,

Greg.

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On 7/25/2023 at 5:07 PM, GJK said:

@LouieD a bit overdue, but many thanks for your terrific work on the the BAOR OR AT.  I am particularly interested in the latter years of the Cold War, so your excellent work is a valuable reference.

Best,

Greg.

Greg,

I am slowly working on a new version. I say slowly because I now have so much information (GDP89) that I am trying to reconcile it all into a readable and succinct format. I have been able to get so granular that I even have all the tail codes for the Lynx & Gazelles in BAOR in 1989.

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50 minutes ago, GJK said:

Sounds fascinating.  Nice to see you are keeping AAC folk excited too!

Best,

Greg 

They better be excited!! Not in this version but I am working on the Chieftain fleet, I may, in the future have all the Chieftain  vehicle numbers for each Regt in 1989 ……The People’s Cavalry would approve methinks!

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17 hours ago, LouieD said:

They better be excited!! Not in this version but I am working on the Chieftain fleet, I may, in the future have all the Chieftain  vehicle numbers for each Regt in 1989 ……The People’s Cavalry would approve methinks!

Louie, did you ever see this? Found it quite useful, at least for the late 80s.

https://merlinarchive.uk/vehicle/01FD12

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