Flummoxed by Moolah

[On the way]

SO, I have had Chuck Yeager's autobiography for a while now and have read it a couple of times. I am puzzled by the chapter on Out flying the Russians where he described how himself, Al Boyd and Tom Collins when out to Kadena AFB in Japan to test fly a Mig-15 flown to Japan by North Korean Defector Kim Sok Ho (actually it should be spelt NO KUM SOK). Supposedly No defected under the US propaganda campaign called OPeration Moolah, which offered $100K to any pilot that defected to the West with his Mig 15.

In this chapter, Yeager described how they flew the Mig-15, a completely strange and dangerous plane and specifically described that as the first Mig-15 the US had got their hands on. Yeager described flying the Mig-15 in February 1954, but No had defected on Sept. 21st 1953. What I am flummoxed about is that there was an earlier defection of a Mig-15. This was the the defection of Franciszek Jarecki on March 5th 1953, flying his Polish Air Force Mig-15 to Bornholm, Denmark. This is more then 6 months before Lt No's defection. And apparently, another Mig-15 flown also by a Polish Air Force pilot named Jaswinski, defected to Bornholm on May 21st 1953. Apparently, Jarecki's Mig-15 was eventually returned to the Poles, some weeks later. I am pretty sure the USAF and NATO must have crawled all over the plane and even flew it.

Why then did Yeager say it was the first time they got their hands on one? And why wasn't the Wright Test pilots like Yeager send to Denmark 6 months earlier to fly the Mig-15 instead of to Japan? And from Yeager's description,it seems like they were seeing everything for the first time and figuring out the Mig's systems and performance envelope as they went along. Exactly what did the US and NATO do with those defected Migs in Denmark? Take selfies with them? The Korean War ceasefire was on July 27th 1953. They West could have had time to evaluate the Mig-15, and dessiminated the information about the weaknesses and strengths of the Mig to pilots in Korea by the end of March. The United Nations pilots could have used this information at least for a few months till the armistice was signed in July of 1953. And why run Operation Moolah, when they already had their hands on at least 2 Mig-15s in Denmark?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

The thing to remember about Yeager, and I loved his book and I think he is a truly amazing pilot, is he is a bit of bullshit artist. When he starts picking holes in Neil Armstrongs piloting ability, you know you are dealing with someone who really thinks he is a better pilot and more awesome human being than anyone else. He is trying to up himself on the first man who landed on the moon. That tells you something.

According to this story I found, it seems Denmark was unwilling to fly the migs at all in case they crashed, which would be awkward to explain to Poland! Having said that, its clearly they had a pilot to interrogate. So it probably wasnt really that much of a mystery. So when Yeager took one up, it was less a flight into the unknown, than taking all they had learned and validating it. Important to be sure, but hardly a leap into the unknown.

http://www.air-intel.nl/docs/Aeroplane_MiGsodBonrholm_June2017.pdf

Not knocking the mans many achievements btw, but its one more example of him talking himself up in his biography. He really didnt need to, he was already awesome.

[RETAC21]

1 hour ago, On the way said:

SO, I have had Chuck Yeager's autobiography for a while now and have read it a couple of times. I am puzzled by the chapter on Out flying the Russians where he described how himself, Al Boyd and Tom Collins when out to Kadena AFB in Japan to test fly a Mig-15 flown to Japan by North Korean Defector Kim Sok Ho (actually it should be spelt NO KUM SOK). Supposedly No defected under the US propaganda campaign called OPeration Moolah, which offered $100K to any pilot that defected to the West with his Mig 15.

In this chapter, Yeager described how they flew the Mig-15, a completely strange and dangerous plane and specifically described that as the first Mig-15 the US had got their hands on. Yeager described flying the Mig-15 in February 1954, but No had defected on Sept. 21st 1953. What I am flummoxed about is that there was an earlier defection of a Mig-15. This was the the defection of Franciszek Jarecki on March 5th 1953, flying his Polish Air Force Mig-15 to Bornholm, Denmark. This is more then 6 months before Lt No's defection. And apparently, another Mig-15 flown also by a Polish Air Force pilot named Jaswinski, defected to Bornholm on May 21st 1953. Apparently, Jarecki's Mig-15 was eventually returned to the Poles, some weeks later. I am pretty sure the USAF and NATO must have crawled all over the plane and even flew it.

Why then did Yeager say it was the first time they got their hands on one? And why wasn't the Wright Test pilots like Yeager send to Denmark 6 months earlier to fly the Mig-15 instead of to Japan? And from Yeager's description,it seems like they were seeing everything for the first time and figuring out the Mig's systems and performance envelope as they went along. Exactly what did the US and NATO do with those defected Migs in Denmark? Take selfies with them? The Korean War ceasefire was on July 27th 1953. They West could have had time to evaluate the Mig-15, and dessiminated the information about the weaknesses and strengths of the Mig to pilots in Korea by the end of March. The United Nations pilots could have used this information at least for a few months till the armistice was signed in July of 1953. And why run Operation Moolah, when they already had their hands on at least 2 Mig-15s in Denmark?

 

One thing that is usually forgotten is that NATO wasn't comprised of sepoys and NATO members had their own concerns. In the case of Denmark, it was for practical purposes a border state with the Soviet Union and there was little they could do to stop the Soviets ocuppying Bornholm in 1954 so they needed to thread a fine line (remember this was the time before NATO built up its strength in the 60s and the number of nukes was still limited). On top of that, Denmark and Poland were not at war and there was no question about the ownership of the machines so they couldn't just be sent to the US. 

Note this was no small point and the US went about getting Soviet equipment very carefully to the point that the acquisition of MiGs from Indonesia was onlu acknowledged recently.

[Rick]

Any detailed information on the Soviet pilot who flew his M.I.G. 25 to Japan?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Viktor Belenko? He wrote a biography of himself with an author called John Barron called 'Mig Pilot'. Its out of print (and I stupidly passed up a copy I saw in a second hand store), but its hosted online on a Russian website.

http://testpilot.ru/review/mig_pilot/index_e.htm

I wont go into detail, but he admits he was always a square peg in a round hole. His marriage was failing because he was posted to asia to an airfield with no facilities, and his wife said she was leaving for moscow to take his son with her. So he ran out of reasons not to poke off.

There was another pilot in 1989 who defected with a Mig29, called Alexsandr Zuyev. He few to Turkey after shooting (and being shot by) a guard, both fortunately surviving. Again, the Turks gave he mig back before a detailed study could be undertaken, though of course the following year it all became a bit moot. He wrote a book called 'Fulcrum, A Top Gun Pilot's Escape from the Soviet Empire', which was very interesting, not least because it challenges the western idea the Soviets never did BFM training.

You can find his book here. I dont feel guilty sharing that, the poor man died in a plane crash in 2001. Ironically it was whilst flying a Soviet trainer.

https://web.archive.org/web/20141107052257/http://scilib.narod.ru/Avia/Fulcrum/Fulcrum.html

Zuyev I believe claimed to meet Belenko after his defection. He seemed to be earning a living as a defence consultant, so he did ok for himself it seems.

 

[On the way]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The thing to remember about Yeager, and I loved his book and I think he is a truly amazing pilot, is he is a bit of bullshit artist. When he starts picking holes in Neil Armstrongs piloting ability, you know you are dealing with someone who really thinks he is a better pilot and more awesome human being than anyone else. He is trying to up himself on the first man who landed on the moon. That tells you something.

According to this story I found, it seems Denmark was unwilling to fly the migs at all in case they crashed, which would be awkward to explain to Poland! Having said that, its clearly they had a pilot to interrogate. So it probably wasnt really that much of a mystery. So when Yeager took one up, it was less a flight into the unknown, than taking all they had learned and validating it. Important to be sure, but hardly a leap into the unknown.

http://www.air-intel.nl/docs/Aeroplane_MiGsodBonrholm_June2017.pdf

Not knocking the mans many achievements btw, but its one more example of him talking himself up in his biography. He really didnt need to, he was already awesome.

Thanks for the link to the Danish MIg-15s. I can understand if they did not want to fly the Mig for fear of crashing it. Although, I think with the calibre of test pilots like Yeager, and Tom Collins, Ridley, Hoover and all those other guys, I think it would have been pretty safe to fly it. Regardless, they had the Mig for a few weeks before returning them. I would imagine they could have stripped it down and put it back together in that time and at the very least to run static engine tests to figure out the thrust, engine response, etc. As well, they could have gotten some ammo and fired the Mig's guns to get an idea of their range and effectiveness. Not to mention being 100% familiar with the cockpit instrument panel, etc. The way Yeager described it, it was literally the first time the USAF had seen a Mig up close, when they went to Kadena. Everything was starting from step one for them and new to them. I find it extremely weird that no mention was made of the Bonholm Migs which the USAF for sure had their hands on a few months earlier. Even if they had not flown it, I am sure they would have send test pilots from Wright or Muroc out there to examine it. I wonder if I should email Yeager and ask him? Not even sure if he replies to any email or what shape healthwise he is in now.  

[On the way]

7 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

One thing that is usually forgotten is that NATO wasn't comprised of sepoys and NATO members had their own concerns. In the case of Denmark, it was for practical purposes a border state with the Soviet Union and there was little they could do to stop the Soviets ocuppying Bornholm in 1954 so they needed to thread a fine line (remember this was the time before NATO built up its strength in the 60s and the number of nukes was still limited). On top of that, Denmark and Poland were not at war and there was no question about the ownership of the machines so they couldn't just be sent to the US. 

Note this was no small point and the US went about getting Soviet equipment very carefully to the point that the acquisition of MiGs from Indonesia was onlu acknowledged recently.

Bonholm was occupied by the Soviets in 1954? I was not aware of that. I thought the Germans on Bonholm surrendered to the Western allies after WW2, and the Soviets left after the end of WW2 and it has been in Danish possession since then, up till today. The Indonesians did not allow the west to examine their Migs until after the overthrow of Sokarno in 1967, I believe. Suharto was pro west, and by then the Indonesian supply of Russian weaponry was old and outdated. In any case, the question is not over ownership of the Bonholm Migs, rather over why there seems to be a general acceptance the North Korean Mig was the first one in the hands of the west.

[RETAC21]

27 minutes ago, On the way said:

Bonholm was occupied by the Soviets in 1954? I was not aware of that. I thought the Germans on Bonholm surrendered to the Western allies after WW2, and the Soviets left after the end of WW2 and it has been in Danish possession since then, up till today. The Indonesians did not allow the west to examine their Migs until after the overthrow of Sokarno in 1967, I believe. Suharto was pro west, and by then the Indonesian supply of Russian weaponry was old and outdated. In any case, the question is not over ownership of the Bonholm Migs, rather over why there seems to be a general acceptance the North Korean Mig was the first one in the hands of the west.

No, I may have explained myself badly, the Soviets never were in Bornholm, but it was on their doorstep and if pushed, they may have pushed back, remember Stalin they had no qualms about shooting down aircraft, for example. So in short, the Bornholm MiGs weren't "in the hands" of the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Jarecki#Defection

Note though: 

"Jarecki flew from Słupsk to the field airport at Rønne on the Danish island of Bornholm, where Jarecki landed, wheels intact. The whole trip took him only a few minutes. There, specialists from the United States, called by Danish authorities, thoroughly checked the plane. According to international regulations, they returned it by ship to Poland a few weeks later.

Jarecki remained in the West. From Denmark, he moved to London, where General Władysław Anders awarded him the Cross of Merit, and then to the United States, where he provided crucial information about modern Soviet aircraft and air tactics. Among those who shook his hand was President Dwight D. Eisenhower. Jarecki received a $50,000 prize for the person who was first to present a MiG-15 to the Americans and became a U.S. citizen.[3]"

Edited December 3, 2020 by RETAC21

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

No, I may have explained myself badly, the Soviets never were in Bornholm, but it was on their doorstep and if pushed, they may have pushed back, remember Stalin they had no qualms about shooting down aircraft, for example. So in short, the Bornholm MiGs weren't "in the hands" of the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Jarecki#Defection

Note though: 

"Jarecki flew from Słupsk to the field airport at Rønne on the Danish island of Bornholm, where Jarecki landed, wheels intact. The whole trip took him only a few minutes. There, specialists from the United States, called by Danish authorities, thoroughly checked the plane. According to international regulations, they returned it by ship to Poland a few weeks later.

Jarecki remained in the West. From Denmark, he moved to London, where General Władysław Anders awarded him the Cross of Merit, and then to the United States, where he provided crucial information about modern Soviet aircraft and air tactics. Among those who shook his hand was President Dwight D. Eisenhower. Jarecki received a $50,000 prize for the person who was first to present a MiG-15 to the Americans and became a U.S. citizen.[3]"

Good point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair#:~:text=The Catalina affair ( Swedish%3A Catalinaaffären) was a,over international waters in the Baltic Sea .

[cbo]

On 12/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, On the way said:

Bonholm was occupied by the Soviets in 1954? I was not aware of that. I thought the Germans on Bonholm surrendered to the Western allies after WW2, and the Soviets left after the end of WW2 and it has been in Danish possession since then, up till today. 

The German garrison at Bornholm was not willing to surrender when the German forces in the rest of Denmark capitulated on May 5th. 1945. The island was deep behind Soviet lines on the mainland and the Germans wanted to keep it in German hands for as long as possible as a safe-haven for fleeing German civilians and troops. The Western allies were not going to send any troops to Bornholm unless the Danish Goverment asked them to and the Danish Goverment was not keen on ruffling Soviet feathers. So the Soviets bombed the island on May 7th and 8th and the Germans capitulated to the Soviets on May 9th. The island was then occupied by Soviet forces until April 1946.

As the article Stuart linked to states, the prize for getting the Soviets to leave was that Danish Goverment agreed that only Danish forces would be found on Bornholm, not any foreign troops.

It was to maintain this delicate balance, that the case of the Polish MIG had to be handled with some care, as the British Military Attache learned

[RETAC21]

Loosely related

 

[Mikel2]

Loosely related to the other loosely related story.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/canadian-paratroopers-saved-denmark-soviet-occupation.html

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

21 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Loosely related

 

Glad you saw this, I meant to link it up. I rather like Carrolls channel.