Drones vs. Tanks and AFVs.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It's nothing new this cost disparity. After all, look at a Piat. 

[Tim Sielbeck]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/01/marines-drone-killing-lasers-get-even-more-powerful-after-upgrades.html

[Samson]

That laser is compact enough to fit on about any AFV turret, interesting

[sunday]

19 minutes ago, Samson said:

That laser is compact enough to fit on about any AFV turret, interesting

Also looks like it has self-contained fire director, and power supply.  More interesting.

Figures about how long it could fire should not be public ATM, I am afraid.

[Samson]

It would be extremely useful for more then just drone zapping.  Frying suspected IEDs, cutting wires or frying power/coms devices, covertly disabling vehicles from a distance, smoking out bad guys via strategically light fires, warming up MREs....

[Stuart Galbraith]

Lighting cigars, squad barbecue, tattooing rude names in the sergeants hair when his back is turned...

[Bsmitty]

Started wondering if you could build a RWS-sized CIWS to knock out both small "copter" drones as well as ATGMs.  Came across this, which is essentially a similar idea.

https://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/XM214.html

Of course this guy has some whacky ideas, which makes me wonder about the sanity of this concept.

5.56mm seems like the right option, given max range as well as cost and size of ammo.  The XM214 is no longer offered, but there is the XM556.

http://www.emptyshell.us/xm556-microgun

5.56mm might permit engagements out to 500m or so.  Hitting a small drone or ATGM at that range might be tough.  However, even 2-300m would still be a significant improvement over current hard-kill APS systems.

A MMW fire control radar would permit closed-loop tracking of outgoing rounds and targets.   Cueing would be via separate APS search radars and/or staring IR.  

I imagine a short-range kinetic APS would still be needed to back stop the CIWS in a layered defense.

If you can manage 50rnds per engagement, then cost per engagement would only be around $11-12.  1,000rnds on the mount would permit 20 engagements before reloading.  And it would use in-service ammunition.

Obviously it would also be useful as an anti-personnel weapon, though obviously range an penetration isn't as good as 7.62mm or .50cal. 

Drawbacks include the danger of semi-automatically streaming 50+ 5.56mm rounds down a line that might intersect with friendlies.  May have to have significant, dynamic, no-shoot zones.  

It could still be saturated by multiple ATGMS or drones attacking near simultaneously, but more than one vehicle might be able to cover a zone.  

Obviously if it can't effectively engage representative targets at useful ranges, then it doesn't make sense.

The benefits of this CIWS vs gun-based airbursting rounds includes the possibility of lower cost per kill (ABM rounds can be up to $50 per shot, though I'm not sure how far down high rate production will reduce this).   Also, the smallest current weapons with ABM rounds are based on the 30x 113mm chain gun.   Pretty big for an RWS.  Might be an interesting reason to reactivate the 25mm ACSW.  

Guided counter-drones might be viable instead, but again cost per shot might be fairly high, and not as useful against ATGMs.  Might be too much to deal with a swarm of quadcopters.

Lasers are an obvious competitor.  However the dwell time needed for current and near future laser systems makes them unlikely to be useful against ATGMs.  Also, battlefield obscurants, rain, fog and so on can disrupt the beam.

Anyway, just a "scratch the itch" concept exploration. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Bsmitty

[jmsaari]

43 minutes ago, Bsmitty said:

Started wondering if you could build a RWS-sized CIWS to knock out both small "copter" drones as well as ATGMs.  Came across this, which is essentially a similar idea.

https://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/XM214.html

Of course this guy has some whacky ideas, which makes me wonder about the sanity of this concept.

5.56mm seems like the right option, given max range as well as cost and size of ammo.  The XM214 is no longer offered, but there is the XM556.

http://www.emptyshell.us/xm556-microgun

5.56mm might permit engagements out to 500m or so.  Hitting a small drone or ATGM at that range might be tough.  However, even 2-300m would still be a significant improvement over current hard-kill APS systems.

A MMW fire control radar would permit closed-loop tracking of outgoing rounds and targets.   Cueing would be via separate APS search radars and/or staring IR.  

I imagine a short-range kinetic APS would still be needed to back stop the CIWS in a layered defense.

If you can manage 50rnds per engagement, then cost per engagement would only be around $11-12.  1,000rnds on the mount would permit 20 engagements before reloading.  And it would use in-service ammunition.

Obviously it would also be useful as an anti-personnel weapon, though obviously range an penetration isn't as good as 7.62mm or .50cal. 

Drawbacks include the danger of semi-automatically streaming 50+ 5.56mm rounds down a line that might intersect with friendlies.  May have to have significant, dynamic, no-shoot zones.  

It could still be saturated by multiple ATGMS or drones attacking near simultaneously, but more than one vehicle might be able to cover a zone.  

Obviously if it can't effectively engage representative targets at useful ranges, then it doesn't make sense.

The benefits of this CIWS vs gun-based airbursting rounds includes the possibility of lower cost per kill (ABM rounds can be up to $50 per shot, though I'm not sure how far down high rate production will reduce this).   Also, the smallest current weapons with ABM rounds are based on the 30x 113mm chain gun.   Pretty big for an RWS.  Might be an interesting reason to reactivate the 25mm ACSW.  

Guided counter-drones might be viable instead, but again cost per shot might be fairly high, and not as useful against ATGMs.  Might be too much to deal with a swarm of quadcopters.

Lasers are an obvious competitor.  However the dwell time needed for current and near future laser systems makes them unlikely to be useful against ATGMs.  Also, battlefield obscurants, rain, fog and so on can disrupt the beam.

Anyway, just a "scratch the itch" concept exploration. 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't there a proposal around 1990's for a 7.62 mm "mini-CIWS" for anti-ATGM use, or is my memory playing tricks on me? I seem to recall reading about such , obviously never came to anything & cant find anything now...

[bojan]

There was a Soviet protype from the '60s.

[Bsmitty]

MADIS Mk2 is trialing an M134 minigun on an RWS mount for anti-drone use.  

 

[Bsmitty]

Nicholas Drummond just did a piece on this here,

https://uklandpower.com/2021/04/25/have-loitering-munitions-made-tanks-obsolete/

[Ssnake]

Well, to answer the click-baity strawman headline in the author's own words,

15 hours ago, Bsmitty said:

...the proposition that loitering munitions make tanks obsolete is fallacious...

 

[Bsmitty]

Yes, it is a click-baity headline.   Once you get past that though, it seemed like a well reasoned post.  

[Ssnake]

Yes.

[Samson]

That is absolutely beastly!  I wonder if a cannon could be found that would being airburst to the system? 

[AttilaA]

On 4/26/2021 at 6:19 PM, Bsmitty said:

Nicholas Drummond just did a piece on this here,

https://uklandpower.com/2021/04/25/have-loitering-munitions-made-tanks-obsolete/

Azerbaijan used Harop, not Harpy. Harop, unlike Harpy, has a EO sensor.

 

 

 

[Ssnake]

In principle KETF rounds are a very good answer to the problem (at least much better than a f'in minigun spewing rounds in rapid fire in some automatic or semi-robotic fashion into the sky --- seriously, what are these people thinking???)

The main problem, I think, that will emerge is that they are horribly expensive unless the number of rounds per engagement is in the 1...5 shots range, that the pellets are too large and therefore too few, that 30mm guns tend to be too large for single purpose remotely/autonomously operated drone defenses, and that nobody who fields a 30mm gun (even if you pick the lower recoil 30x113mm cartridge with its anaemic armor piercing performance) will give it a "bird shot" KETF on one ammo feed, and a regular KETF on the other.

So if we go down this route, we'll be reintroducing SPAAAs JUST for drone defense, and there only for the class "low/slow/small", and that's a really shitty rationale.

[Samson]

 

[Bsmitty]

19 hours ago, Ssnake said:

In principle KETF rounds are a very good answer to the problem (at least much better than a f'in minigun spewing rounds in rapid fire in some automatic or semi-robotic fashion into the sky --- seriously, what are these people thinking???)

The main problem, I think, that will emerge is that they are horribly expensive unless the number of rounds per engagement is in the 1...5 shots range, that the pellets are too large and therefore too few, that 30mm guns tend to be too large for single purpose remotely/autonomously operated drone defenses, and that nobody who fields a 30mm gun (even if you pick the lower recoil 30x113mm cartridge with its anaemic armor piercing performance) will give it a "bird shot" KETF on one ammo feed, and a regular KETF on the other.

So if we go down this route, we'll be reintroducing SPAAAs JUST for drone defense, and there only for the class "low/slow/small", and that's a really shitty rationale.

Unless you dust off ACSW, the smallest reasonable ABM round appears to be 30x113mm (forthcoming).  But those guns require a pretty significant RWS and ammo feed system.   A rifle-caliber minigun can be put on a small RWS, which could be incorporated onto vehicles who's primary purpose isn't just to shoot down drones.  It could replace existing MG/AGL RWSs on tanks, IFVs, APCs, MRAPs, and so on.  This would give them an outer layer defense against not just drones, but also loitering munitions and ATGMs.  

 

 

[sunday]

51 minutes ago, Bsmitty said:

Unless you dust off ACSW, the smallest reasonable ABM round appears to be 30x113mm (forthcoming).  But those guns require a pretty significant RWS and ammo feed system.   A rifle-caliber minigun can be put on a small RWS, which could be incorporated onto vehicles who's primary purpose isn't just to shoot down drones.  It could replace existing MG/AGL RWSs on tanks, IFVs, APCs, MRAPs, and so on.  This would give them an outer layer defense against not just drones, but also loitering munitions and ATGMs.  

Range is the issue here. 30mm KETF should work up to about 3km/2 miles or more. While there are attack drones, perhaps recon ones are more dangerous when warfare among peers is involved, and those could fulfill their purpose at quite far ranges.

For shorter ranges, there could be a possibility of using automatic large bore shotguns to deal with swarms of small, inexpensive drones, however. Something like shotgun shells built on the new telescoped cartridges for IFV autocannon, like 40x255mm CTA.
 

[bojan]

Incorporating everything in the single vehicle (tank) is a fool's errand. Dedicated Bn  level gun AD with prox/time fused ammo and good enough sensor suite. That solves problem of suicide and small drones. + self-defense capabilities of IFVs.

High altitude drones are not Bn level problem, if they are pounding Bn with impunity that is a symptom of much larger problems up the chain.

Edited April 29, 2021 by bojan

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Bsmitty said:

Unless you dust off ACSW, the smallest reasonable ABM round appears to be 30x113mm (forthcoming).  But those guns require a pretty significant RWS and ammo feed system.

Yes, I wrote that.

1 hour ago, Bsmitty said:

A rifle-caliber minigun can be put on a small RWS, which could be incorporated onto vehicles who's primary purpose isn't just to shoot down drones.

Yes, but

a. at which range? (hint: "short")

b. what's with all the bullets that can't defeat air drag and gravity?

A minigun spews hundreds of rounds minimum per engagement, typically all high up in the air, in all kinds of directions. These burst streams aren't going to disappear, they're not going to fall to the ground with minimal energy ... unlike shotgun and KETF pellets. Shooting a minigun from a handful of helicopters down on ground targets is one thing. Having dozens of vehicles shooting miniguns high up in all directions is quite another.

I understand that miniguns are awesome if you're behind the trigger. I understand that minigun manufacturers will look for new application cases so they can sell more of them. I also think that they are costly, of very limited use against drones, and with disproportionate potential for collateral damage, including blue on blue. So please excuse me that I am less than enthusiastic about the concept.

[Bsmitty]

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Yes, I wrote that.

Yes, but

a. at which range? (hint: "short")

b. what's with all the bullets that can't defeat air drag and gravity?

A minigun spews hundreds of rounds minimum per engagement, typically all high up in the air, in all kinds of directions. These burst streams aren't going to disappear, they're not going to fall to the ground with minimal energy ... unlike shotgun and KETF pellets. Shooting a minigun from a handful of helicopters down on ground targets is one thing. Having dozens of vehicles shooting miniguns high up in all directions is quite another.

I understand that miniguns are awesome if you're behind the trigger. I understand that minigun manufacturers will look for new application cases so they can sell more of them. I also think that they are costly, of very limited use against drones, and with disproportionate potential for collateral damage, including blue on blue. So please excuse me that I am less than enthusiastic about the concept.

a. Probably out to a few hundred meters, an order of magnitude or two more than existing APS systems.

b. I agree spewing 7.62mm rounds everywhere is less than desirable.  However, it is an in-service weapon.  I'd be fine resurrecting this guy too.  (ATK LW25 chain gun that used the ACSW 25mm grenades)

 

[Ssnake]

I still think that drone-hunting drones are a much better answer, such as the "drone bullet" as described in the video a few posts up. There's next to no risk for collateral damage, it doesn't seem complicated to use so the amount of training required may be acceptable, the costs per unit are probably not too high. They won't scale well with large drone swarms, but then few solutions do.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It strikes me there is two or three different problems all put together under the heading of 'Drones' that are all different. There are the dinky ones that can be carried by the squad that are only really useful for recce. TBH, I dont see the point of a vehicle weapon for those. You would do far better to try and jam command links. If a tank feels threatened by such a drone then it would probably do better to kill the squad that sent it, which would probably be significantly easier, and more efficient than carrying a beehive round that can do it.

There are the bigger drones like Predator, that are simply going to be too high for any gun mounted system to attack. You need the air force or a mobile sam battery to deal with that.

Or thirdly, you have battlefield weapons that can attack vehicles. Which would be lethal, but im still not seeing anything out there that wouldnt be tackled by an APS system that can similarly destroy missiles that go for top attack. When you have a squad drone that can see out an kill the vulnerable part of tanks, then clearly that will be the end of tanks. But I dont see we are even close to that, nor could be till we get a decent AI.

Im sure there are a few weapons out there that blur the lines, but the only threat from a squad drone is the ability to call in artillery strikes. Significant investment in jamming capability you can carry with you at least to the company and even the squad level might be more efficient. After all, if you kill one drone, like as not they have another, and the simple act of killing one is going to reveal something about where you are.

 

I wonder if a drone carrying a jammer might be a viable way of doing it? Then you arent leaving a location they can stonk with artillery.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Stuart Galbraith