Stuart Galbraith Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 Does anyone have any good sources for any information on the Swiss Army during the cold war? Im told the user would like it 'very detailed', but im coming up a blank even in wargaming sites.
RETAC21 Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 Try in French: https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=rms-001:1972:117::797 Und Deutsch: https://mil-hist-biel-seeland.jimdofree.com/karte-zeuss/ https://www.wikiwand.com/de/Armee_61
BansheeOne Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 Pat Callahan's 1989 NATO OOB also includes the Swiss armed forces, though the detail is only to regimental level.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 23, 2020 Author Posted October 23, 2020 Thats amazing, he updated it and I never even noticed! That will also be really useful for a 1983 scenario im working on for TOAW. Than you both very much indeed, I should think that would probably be enough for him, but I might drop some other questions in if he comes up with any. cheers guys.
Captain Hurricane Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) If you've got what you need ORBAT wise from the links above great. I have a copy of a good source for fairly detailed Swiss ToE's (in German) from the mid/late 70's. if they're of any use to you let me know and I will send them to you. Also attached a PDF about Truppenordnung 51 (the 1951 re-organisation) in case you want eariler stuff as well. Sorry I downloaded it some time ago so I'm not sure of the original source. Cheers Truppenordnung 51 and Swiss Army OOB in the 50s updated.pdf Edited October 23, 2020 by Captain Hurricane
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 23, 2020 Author Posted October 23, 2020 Im not quite sure how detailed he wants, but Ill take anything you have if thats ok with you. Please message me and ill send you my email. Again, thats very useful. I didnt know the Swiss used German AT guns (though logically thinking about it, there is no reason why they wouldnt). Switzerland must be a great place to shop for German military equipment. I remember reading that Swiss Lugers were very popular among collectors, hence the possible connection with the lake Annecy murders.
Captain Hurricane Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 Okay, will do that for you over the weekend. The Swiss seem to love shopping around for stuff that they can't source themselves. Their air force used Bf109's during the war which saw action against both Axis and Allied planes that entered Swiss airspace and they also used a few Ju52 transports for many years after 1945. In more recent times I saw somewhere that the Swiss acquired several hundred US M109 155mm SPG's, by the late 1980's having 3 or 4 times the total number that the British Army had in service?
Leo Niehorster Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 There are also the Swiss "Bundesblatt", which published changed and/or new orders of battle. All available on line from the Swiss Government https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/bundesrecht/bundesblatt.html -- Leo
bojan Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 I might have some '60s rifle company TOE of the dubious accuracy.
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 24, 2020 Author Posted October 24, 2020 That would be very helpful if you can find it. He said he wants something on Battalion TOE, so that would be quite useful.
bojan Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 From a local army "info books". Very brief as with the other "very unlikely" opponents. Two versions, no detailed info on which one is for what purpose. Version 1: Co HQ - 9-13 men (depending if it has motorization or not) - 4-7 x rifle, 4 x sniper rifle Machinegun section - 7 men - 2 x MG, 5 x Rifle Rifle Platoon x 3 - 42 men - 6 x LMG, 3 x Anti-tank weapon, 35 x rifle Plt Cmd - 3 men - 2 x Rifle Rifle section x 3 - 13 men - 2 x LMG, 1 x Anti-tank weapon, 11 x Rifle Total - 142-146 men - 2 x MG, 9 x ATW, 18 x LMG, 114-117 x Rifle Version 2: Co HQ - 9-13 men (depending if it has motorization or not) - 4-7 x rifle, 4 x sniper rifle Rifle Platoon x 3 - 35 men - 3 x LMG, 31 x Rifle, 2 x Sniper rifle Plt Cmd - 5 men - 2 x Rifle, 2 x Sniper rifle Rifle section x 3 - 10 men - 1 x LMG, 9 x Rifle Support platoon - 23 men - 3 x MG, 4 x Anti-tank weapon, 20 x Rifle Plt Cmd - 4 men - 4 x Rifle AT section - 9 men - 4 x Anti-tank weapon, 9 x rifle MG Section - 10 men - 3 x MG, 7 x Rifle Total - 137-141 men - 4 x Anti-tank weapon, 3 x MG, 9 x LMG, 117-120 x Rifle, 10 x Sniper rifle Rifle - 7.5mm automatic rifle M57 LMG - 7.5mm M51 ATW - 83mm M50 or M58, "capable of penetrating armor of any modern tank, 200m effective range" Sniper rifle - "7.5mm M55" Battalion is described very briefly as having: Bn HQ AT platoon - 4 x 106mm RCL, mounted on 4x4 light vehicles, but dismountable. Some Bns use pack horse to transport those instead of 4x4 light vehicles. Reserve units might have 83mm M50 AT weapons instead of 106mm RCLs 3-4 x Rifle company (as above) 1 x Mortar company - 12 x 81mm mortar AD Battery - 4 x 20/1mm AAG Various logistic and rear area elements.
Rick Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 12 -- 81mm mortars sounds like alot in a battalion?
bojan Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) Yes and no. They had 12 at a Bn level since they did not have any at the Co level. At the same time period Yugoslav infantry Bn also had 12 x 82mm mortar, but they were allocated differently, 2 in each infantry co and 6 in the mortar platoon of the support company. IIRC Soviets had 9 and I don't remember how many US had, but IIRC 8 comes to mind (US also had 60mm (3?) at a Co level). There was a general tendency post-WW2 to increase number of the support weapons, and some of the '80s Bns had more heavy weapons than 1940s regiments. Edited October 25, 2020 by bojan
Stuart Galbraith Posted October 25, 2020 Author Posted October 25, 2020 Cheers for that Bojan, thats very helpful.
Perun Posted November 16, 2021 Posted November 16, 2021 On 10/23/2020 at 11:54 AM, Captain Hurricane said: If you've got what you need ORBAT wise from the links above great. I have a copy of a good source for fairly detailed Swiss ToE's (in German) from the mid/late 70's. if they're of any use to you let me know and I will send them to you. Also attached a PDF about Truppenordnung 51 (the 1951 re-organisation) in case you want eariler stuff as well. Sorry I downloaded it some time ago so I'm not sure of the original source. Cheers Truppenordnung 51 and Swiss Army OOB in the 50s updated.pdfUnavailable Please could you sent that OOB and could you atached again above mentioned pdf
Junior FO Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) ... Edited September 22, 2024 by Junior FO
sunday Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 If not him, I wonder if you are going into rearmament, putting some mountain bunkers back into service and the like. That reminds me, how did the average Swiss react to the loss of the neutrality stance vs. Russia?
bojan Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) Junior FO, as many Co/Bn level TOEs as possible Edited March 17, 2022 by bojan
Junior FO Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) ... Edited September 22, 2024 by Junior FO
sunday Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Junior FO said: What loss of neutrality stance? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/neutral-swiss-adopt-sanctions-against-russia-2022-02-28/ Quote ZURICH, Feb 28 (Reuters) - Switzerland will adopt all the sanctions that the European Union has imposed on Russian people and companies and freeze their assets to punish the invasion of Ukraine, the government said in a sharp deviation from the country's traditional neutrality. "We are in an extraordinary situation where extraordinary measures could be decided," President and Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis told a news conference in Bern on Monday, flanked by the finance, defence and justice ministers. Only history would tell if such a move could happen again, he said. Swiss neutrality remained intact but "of course we stand on the side of Western values," he added. Switzerland also adopted financial sanctions against Russian President Vladimir Putin, Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, effective immediately, and closed its airspace to most Russian aircraft. Switzerland has steered clear of imposing sanctions in a string of crises, including when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Up to now, the exception has been sanctions imposed by the U.N. Security Council, which it has to implement under international law. Perhaps not a true loss of neutrality, but perhaps a step away. Edited March 17, 2022 by sunday
Junior FO Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) ... Edited September 22, 2024 by Junior FO
sunday Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 Thanks for that bit of information. Much appreciated.
Perun Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 10 hours ago, Junior FO said: Do you still need info on this? Yes, of cours. I am always interested.
Junior FO Posted April 26, 2022 Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) ... Edited September 23, 2024 by Junior FO
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