Canadian Fighter Competition

[Dawes]

I thought the F-35 was dropped from consideration long ago?

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2020/07/31/these-three-companies-submitted-bids-for-canadas-fighter-competition/

[R011]

It's complicated. The RCAF wants the F-35. The previous Conservative government chose it. The Liberals didnt like the F-35 because the Conservatives liked it, so they claimed the competition was rigged (as these things usuually are) so managed to force a new competition which they reset when they became the government. Then Boeing fucked over Bombardier, who have heavy Liberal connections, so they couldnt make a quick choice of the F-18E. So another effective reset and now the process may be proceding as it is meant to.

[Yama]

Oh well, it's still quicker and more coherent program than Indian MRCA.

[Josh]

I'm surprised the F-15X wasn't bid. For the area the CAF has to cover I'd have thought the long range would be useful. But if that isn't a major consideration, the F-35 fly away cost isn't any higher than the F-18E (no idea about Grippen) so just buy the damn thing and have one of the most modern aircraft in the world with all the upgrades and weapon integration that the US will spin off for it.

[CaptLuke]

I'm surprised the F-15X wasn't bid. For the area the CAF has to cover I'd have thought the long range would be useful. But if that isn't a major consideration, the F-35 fly away cost isn't any higher than the F-18E (no idea about Grippen) so just buy the damn thing and have one of the most modern aircraft in the world with all the upgrades and weapon integration that the US will spin off for it.

 

If it were a "green field" competition, then the F-15X would make a lot of sense, but your answer ref the F-15X is in the linked article:

 

Boeing’s argument for its Super Hornet Block III was simple: The Royal Canadian Air Force already operates F/A-18s, and buying the latest version of the Super Hornet is a proven, affordable option that will allow the service to reuse existing infrastructure and reduce sustainment costs.

 

No one is going to compete with LockMart on raw, per plane capability so Boeing and Saab have to compete on costs. Saab has a cheaper, more easily sustained airplane so Boeing's only cost play is to maximize use of established infrastructure / training etc.

[glenn239]

I'm surprised the F-15X wasn't bid. For the area the CAF has to cover I'd have thought the long range would be useful. But if that isn't a major consideration, the F-35 fly away cost isn't any higher than the F-18E (no idea about Grippen) so just buy the damn thing and have one of the most modern aircraft in the world with all the upgrades and weapon integration that the US will spin off for it.

 

Trump's done real damage with relations with Canada with his sanctions and such. I wouldn't be surprised if this eliminates any US supplier from consideration.

 

F-35 is the popular choice up here otherwise I think.

[R011]

I'm surprised the F-15X wasn't bid. For the area the CAF has to cover I'd have thought the long range would be useful. But if that isn't a major consideration, the F-35 fly away cost isn't any higher than the F-18E (no idea about Grippen) so just buy the damn thing and have one of the most modern aircraft in the world with all the upgrades and weapon integration that the US will spin off for it.

But it's a Conservative aircraft. The Liberals won't want it if Bombardier forgives Boeing.

 

As for the F-15EX, it is considerably more expensive than the F-18E and as the Superbug can do the job well enough . . .

Edited August 4, 2020 by R011

[glenn239]

As R011 says, but to emphasize, Canadians are in no mood to buy American jets these days. I don't know what planet Pompeo and Trump are on WRT pushing us around, but I would strongly hope that we never buy another American jet for the 50 years. European, Japanese, whatever.

 

For the record, I'm also for - if Trump pulls any more duties and penalties bullshit on Canadian companies - pushing back hard in the form of suspending NORAD cooperation and such. Trump wants to slap us with 25% duties because you can push us around? Sure, but all US troops involved in NORAD leave Canada the next day and no access is given for any US jets to use Canadian bases or airspace until the duties come off.

Edited August 5, 2020 by glenn239

[RETAC21]

Buy Eurfighters, we can even rename them Canadafighters if you want. Start with the Austrian ones to see if you like them...

[glenn239]

I was thinking more along the lines of stretching out CF-18 service for another 20 years, while joining in the development of this one,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

[JWB]

 

 

For the record, I'm also for - if Trump pulls any more duties and penalties bullshit on Canadian companies - pushing back hard in the form of suspending NORAD cooperation and such. Trump wants to slap us with 25% duties because you can push us around? Sure, but all US troops involved in NORAD leave Canada the next day and no access is given for any US jets to use Canadian bases or airspace until the duties come off.

Trump fumes about the 270% Canadian dairy tariff.

[glenn239]

Canada does have a tariff wall on some foodstuffs in order to maintain a domestic industry on vital commodities. Some craziness about being more self-reliant in diary if global trade collapses. But what are the odds that could happen?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Being back the Avro Arrow!

[glenn239]

Nah, the MIG-31 did everything the Arrow was intended for. Just buy a squadron of those...

[R011]

For some reason, the RCAF is wedded to American fighters. The last fighter we bought not made in North America was the DH Vampire in 1946. Buying Gripen, the only non American candidate, is not inconceivable, but very unlikely.

[Dawes]

I wish we could get Colt Canada (Diemaco) rifles down here in the US. They have a stellar reputation.

[Sardaukar]

I don't think Gripen has range needed in Canada.

[Stuart Galbraith]

What about F16s with conformals? The IAF seem to like them.

[R011]

Canada is a bit larger than Israel or indeed the entire region.

[R011]

Not only did the F-16 lose last time it was considered, LockMart's candidate is the F-35A.

 

The only three bidders are LockMart, Boeing, and BAE. The F-15, Typhoon, Rafael etc. were not offered and so wont be considered.

[Yama]

I was thinking more along the lines of stretching out CF-18 service for another 20 years, while joining in the development of this one,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

It is likely that nobody will be flying Legacy Hornets after ca. 2035, stretching the service life from there seems, well, a stretch. Of course anything is possible, but cannot be particularly cost-effective.

[Dawes]

A blimp with an AMRAAM would have considerable loiter ability

[R011]

I wish we could get Colt Canada (Diemaco) rifles down here in the US. They have a stellar reputation.

Civilian ownership of evil assault rifles is bad.

[Sardaukar]

I wish we could get Colt Canada (Diemaco) rifles down here in the US. They have a stellar reputation.

 

I agree with that. Diemaco C7 was great.

[glenn239]

 

I was thinking more along the lines of stretching out CF-18 service for another 20 years, while joining in the development of this one,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

It is likely that nobody will be flying Legacy Hornets after ca. 2035, stretching the service life from there seems, well, a stretch. Of course anything is possible, but cannot be particularly cost-effective.

 

 

Trump just slapped more duties on Canadian aluminium, so this has not increased the appetite in Canada for US manufactured fighters.

 

I love the idea of Canada getting in on the RAF's Tempest programme. If that means 20 years of make-do, I'm all for it.

 

And yes, a squadron or two of MIG-31M's would do quite nicely for Canada on the Artic front. Of all the interceptors or jets ever built, it's the one that actually did what the Arrow was trying to do. I'd be all for a warning shot across Washington's bow in the form of a purchase there. American dumbfuckery gets tiresome to Canadians, and the closing of the border has taught Canadians that we don't have to kiss American ass just because we're in the attic. I like Trump as a President, but the only thing Trump actually respects is both barrels. Figuratively speaking of course.

Edited August 7, 2020 by glenn239