Culture Wars

[Josh]

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

 

 

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

[JasonJ]

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

 

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

If that's the case, then only that should be pressed into the agenda.

 

The BLM and Antifa stuff needs to be outright denounced from the left.

[Josh]

 

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

Mistakes happen.

 

It serves as an example how mistakes happen irrelavent to BLM sentiment.

 

 

There is a difference between mistakes and dozens of reports of brutality, which suggests that the mistakes are a feature not a bug. There is in most jurisdictions absolutely no way to hold police accountable even if you could afford a lawyer. If you're poor, obviously all you want to do is not be arrested again by the same guy who will be patrolling your neighborhood. Take a look at the Camden restructuring of its police force and the resulting changes.

[JasonJ]

 

 

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

 

Mistakes happen.

It serves as an example how mistakes happen irrelavent to BLM sentiment.

There is a difference between mistakes and dozens of reports of brutality, which suggests that the mistakes are a feature not a bug. There is in most jurisdictions absolutely no way to hold police accountable even if you could afford a lawyer. If you're poor, obviously all you want to do is not be arrested again by the same guy who will be patrolling your neighborhood. Take a look at the Camden restructuring of its police force and the resulting changes.

If that is the case, then that needs to be specified by the leftand the media. Not everything else that is adding more to BLM or cities like Seattle making the police unable to do any good for the city.

[Josh]

 

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

If that's the case, then only that should be pressed into the agenda.

 

The BLM and Antifa stuff needs to be outright denounced from the left.

 

 

BLM is a peaceful protest movement. Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

[Josh]

 

 

 

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

Mistakes happen.

It serves as an example how mistakes happen irrelavent to BLM sentiment.

There is a difference between mistakes and dozens of reports of brutality, which suggests that the mistakes are a feature not a bug. There is in most jurisdictions absolutely no way to hold police accountable even if you could afford a lawyer. If you're poor, obviously all you want to do is not be arrested again by the same guy who will be patrolling your neighborhood. Take a look at the Camden restructuring of its police force and the resulting changes.

If that is the case, then that needs to be specified by the leftand the media. Not everything else that is adding more to BLM or cities like Seattle making the police unable to do any good for the city.

 

 

This is a position where Trump could take on a leadership role then to prove he's above political infighting and race baiting.

[rmgill]

I don't think you would accept a white protester in Michigan asking for a reopening being beaten with batons.

Protestor no. Rioter, yeah.

 

STOP conflating the two. After 2 nights of protests that transmuted to rioting, arson, assault and near murder, it's no longer protesting. When the protestors block traffic, ignore the standard rules for protests and deliberately provoke and endanger, it's not protesting.

 

BLM has made SPECIFIC efforts for more than several years to NOT protest peaceably. They deliberately block traffic and violate laws. If I walked onto the freeway and obstructed cops, you bet your ASS I'd be arrested and violently if I resited with violence. Yet somehow BLM is supposed to get a pass because they're protesting on the interstate enmasse? Sorry, that doesn't work.

 

Want to protest, go get a permit. IT's simple, easy and free. Then make sure you comply with the police. It's easy. Allow other people to pass. Don't obstruct traffic. Don't decide you can block streets because you WANT too.

 

I don't think you would accept a white criminal who was unarmed having the life crushed out of him over the course of most of ten minutes.

How about a mother holding a baby being shot by a police marksman and who's never charged? Was that ok? No. Did I riot? No. I focus on the folks who appoint and run those sorts of departmetns. Notice the issues with the FBI and such right now? Who's unhappy about their Form 302 process?

 

 

I'll super bet that if either of those things happened to someone you personally knew,

Dude, I have a cousin who died when I was a teen under 'mysterious' circumstances down in south east Georgia at the hands of the local police there. My step-mother, her sister, his sister and others on that side of the family assert he was chased and killed.

 

I also have another cousin (blood kin) who was my childhood playmate til we were teens when due to his departure from good behavior we stopped being friends. He has been in and out of jail, has lost a leg due to an injury on the county prison farm. He never educated himself despite having MORE advantages than I did as a child, he's violated court orders, sold drugs, stolen from my grandparents, has multiple kids out of wedlock and is a general shit bird, he's not worth the family effort on him. If he were killed fighting with a cop and it looked like a good shoot, I'd be ok with it. The last time I saw him was when my grandfather died in the 90s and I've only seen a booking photo of him from Cherokee County Jail and had I not been LOOKING for him in the photos, I'd have never recognized him. He has methed out teeth, sunken eyes, gaunt cheeks and upon my recognizing him, the same dyspeptic facial expression that I remembered him having when we more or less stopped being like brothers when I was in High School

 

Don't presume to know what I do and do not think or feel.

[JasonJ]

 

 

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

 

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

If that's the case, then only that should be pressed into the agenda.

The BLM and Antifa stuff needs to be outright denounced from the left.

BLM is a peaceful protest movement. Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

The problem with BLM is that it does not describe the problems that you just stated. Instead it is encouraging the passive creation of white guilt and the passive acceptance of no self improvement among the blacks.

[JasonJ]

 

 

 

 

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

 

Mistakes happen.

It serves as an example how mistakes happen irrelavent to BLM sentiment.

There is a difference between mistakes and dozens of reports of brutality, which suggests that the mistakes are a feature not a bug. There is in most jurisdictions absolutely no way to hold police accountable even if you could afford a lawyer. If you're poor, obviously all you want to do is not be arrested again by the same guy who will be patrolling your neighborhood. Take a look at the Camden restructuring of its police force and the resulting changes.

If that is the case, then that needs to be specified by the leftand the media. Not everything else that is adding more to BLM or cities like Seattle making the police unable to do any good for the city.

This is a position where Trump could take on a leadership role then to prove he's above political infighting and race baiting.

Trump has not done well in this role overall. But what he did well in is not throwing the police under the bus. Mobilizing the national guard in some cases to stop the looting and arsan was good too I think. Failure points was some of his tweets and the church photo op.

[rmgill]

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

The NRA isn't going to comment about every shooting. Generally they're not going to lionize folks who are breaking the law by using illegal drugs AND carrying arms because that's still quite illegal under federal law.

 

You DO want the NRA to be for abiding by federal and state gun laws right? OR is it ok to be stoned and carry a gun? Personally, I don't train friends who I know who use drugs for fun because that crosses some lines that have federal jail time attached if it gets too closely crossed up. I certainly can't and don't touch anything but what is strictly legal (port, beer, scotch, wine, that's it).

[JasonJ]

 

I don't think you would accept a white protester in Michigan asking for a reopening being beaten with batons.

 

Protestor no. Rioter, yeah.

STOP conflating the two. After 2 nights of protests that transmuted to rioting, arson, assault and near murder, it's no longer protesting. When the protestors block traffic, ignore the standard rules for protests and deliberately provoke and endanger, it's not protesting.

 

BLM has made SPECIFIC efforts for more than several years to NOT protest peaceably. They deliberately block traffic and violate laws. If I walked onto the freeway and obstructed cops, you bet your ASS I'd be arrested and violently if I resited with violence. Yet somehow BLM is supposed to get a pass because they're protesting on the interstate enmasse? Sorry, that doesn't work.

Want to protest, go get a permit. IT's simple, easy and free. Then make sure you comply with the police. It's easy. Allow other people to pass. Don't obstruct traffic. Don't decide you can block streets because you WANT too.

 

...

 

Good points.

[Josh]

 

I don't think you would accept a white protester in Michigan asking for a reopening being beaten with batons.

Protestor no. Rioter, yeah.

 

STOP conflating the two. After 2 nights of protests that transmuted to rioting, arson, assault and near murder, it's no longer protesting. When the protestors block traffic, ignore the standard rules for protests and deliberately provoke and endanger, it's not protesting.

 

BLM has made SPECIFIC efforts for more than several years to NOT protest peaceably. They deliberately block traffic and violate laws. If I walked onto the freeway and obstructed cops, you bet your ASS I'd be arrested and violently if I resited with violence. Yet somehow BLM is supposed to get a pass because they're protesting on the interstate enmasse? Sorry, that doesn't work.

 

Want to protest, go get a permit. IT's simple, easy and free. Then make sure you comply with the police. It's easy. Allow other people to pass. Don't obstruct traffic. Don't decide you can block streets because you WANT too.

 

I don't think you would accept a white criminal who was unarmed having the life crushed out of him over the course of most of ten minutes.

How about a mother holding a baby being shot by a police marksman and who's never charged? Was that ok? No. Did I riot? No. I focus on the folks who appoint and run those sorts of departmetns. Notice the issues with the FBI and such right now? Who's unhappy about their Form 302 process?

 

 

I'll super bet that if either of those things happened to someone you personally knew,

Dude, I have a cousin who died when I was a teen under 'mysterious' circumstances down in south east Georgia at the hands of the local police there. My step-mother, her sister, his sister and others on that side of the family assert he was chased and killed.

 

I also have another cousin (blood kin) who was my childhood playmate til we were teens when due to his departure from good behavior we stopped being friends. He has been in and out of jail, has lost a leg due to an injury on the county prison farm. He never educated himself despite having MORE advantages than I did as a child, he's violated court orders, sold drugs, stolen from my grandparents, has multiple kids out of wedlock and is a general shit bird, he's not worth the family effort on him. If he were killed fighting with a cop and it looked like a good shoot, I'd be ok with it. The last time I saw him was when my grandfather died in the 90s and I've only seen a booking photo of him from Cherokee County Jail and had I not been LOOKING for him in the photos, I'd have never recognized him. He has methed out teeth, sunken eyes, gaunt cheeks and upon my recognizing him, the same dyspeptic facial expression that I remembered him having when we more or less stopped being like brothers when I was in High School

 

Don't presume to know what I do and do not think or feel.

 

 

My apologies. So based on those horrific experiences, you still don't think there should be a greater effort to hold police accountable?

[rmgill]

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

What was the effect of the Knapp Commission? Police can be sued in Civil Court. It's qualified immunity there are qualifiers. For good reasons. I've had two friends who were in APD's internal Affairs units. Both stated that they had real cases where they got cops for real corruption. But that they ALSO had folks who came in with flagrantly false accusations.

 

Another cop friend had a woman make claims specifically counter to what his dash cam recorded and that her presumptive allegations of abusive language and behavior that was supposed to be the lynch pin of her lawsuit evaporated when he, his supervisor, her, her attorney AND her 'minister' all viewed the tape together, with the Lawyer being visibly embarrassed by the revaluation that his client had fabricated EVERYTHING. Everything but the bruised arm from when my friend GRABBED her arm to stop her lunging for the glove box to get her paperwork. The minister was NOT apologetic about the false claims.

 

 

BLM is a peaceful protest movement.

No they're not. Their slogan is LITERALLY no justice, NO Peace. Peaceful protests don't hinder, harm and threaten people in the regular goings on of their daily lives. Protests that block interstates on a routine basis are not peaceful. And frankly, the mass of rioting over the past 2 weeks WITH justifications of that rioting by folks saying there's nothing else to do, literally takes that "peaceful" argument out behind the wood shed and treats it like old yeller.

 

The objective of BLM to tear down statutes ranging from Jefferson, to Lincoln, to monuments to confederate dead to pretty much anyone else, even statutes to reconciliation after the civil war ALSO puts paid to that peaceful argument.

 

If you and I had a disagreement and I went and burned your wife's car, would you consider that peaceful? I think not.

 

 

Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

And yet the left has not done much condemnation of antifa. So....here we are. With 2 weeks of rioting across the country and folks unable to even state what the problem is and propose a rational solution that's not out of a sketch by Monty Python

[Josh]

 

I don't think you would accept a white protester in Michigan asking for a reopening being beaten with batons.

Protestor no. Rioter, yeah.

 

STOP conflating the two. After 2 nights of protests that transmuted to rioting, arson, assault and near murder, it's no longer protesting. When the protestors block traffic, ignore the standard rules for protests and deliberately provoke and endanger, it's not protesting.

 

BLM has made SPECIFIC efforts for more than several years to NOT protest peaceably. They deliberately block traffic and violate laws. If I walked onto the freeway and obstructed cops, you bet your ASS I'd be arrested and violently if I resited with violence. Yet somehow BLM is supposed to get a pass because they're protesting on the interstate enmasse? Sorry, that doesn't work.

 

Want to protest, go get a permit. IT's simple, easy and free. Then make sure you comply with the police. It's easy. Allow other people to pass. Don't obstruct traffic. Don't decide you can block streets because you WANT too.

 

I don't think you would accept a white criminal who was unarmed having the life crushed out of him over the course of most of ten minutes.

How about a mother holding a baby being shot by a police marksman and who's never charged? Was that ok? No. Did I riot? No. I focus on the folks who appoint and run those sorts of departmetns. Notice the issues with the FBI and such right now? Who's unhappy about their Form 302 process?

 

 

I'll super bet that if either of those things happened to someone you personally knew,

Dude, I have a cousin who died when I was a teen under 'mysterious' circumstances down in south east Georgia at the hands of the local police there. My step-mother, her sister, his sister and others on that side of the family assert he was chased and killed.

 

I also have another cousin (blood kin) who was my childhood playmate til we were teens when due to his departure from good behavior we stopped being friends. He has been in and out of jail, has lost a leg due to an injury on the county prison farm. He never educated himself despite having MORE advantages than I did as a child, he's violated court orders, sold drugs, stolen from my grandparents, has multiple kids out of wedlock and is a general shit bird, he's not worth the family effort on him. If he were killed fighting with a cop and it looked like a good shoot, I'd be ok with it. The last time I saw him was when my grandfather died in the 90s and I've only seen a booking photo of him from Cherokee County Jail and had I not been LOOKING for him in the photos, I'd have never recognized him. He has methed out teeth, sunken eyes, gaunt cheeks and upon my recognizing him, the same dyspeptic facial expression that I remembered him having when we more or less stopped being like brothers when I was in High School

 

Don't presume to know what I do and do not think or feel.

 

 

My apologies. So based on those horrific experiences, you still don't think there should be a greater effort to hold police accountable?

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

If that's the case, then only that should be pressed into the agenda.

The BLM and Antifa stuff needs to be outright denounced from the left.

BLM is a peaceful protest movement. Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

The problem with BLM is that it does not describe the problems that you just stated. Instead it is encouraging the passive creation of white guilt and the passive acceptance of no self improvement among the blacks.

 

 

I don't believe that is any of their actual slogans. Perhaps we could shoot for police reform and then accuse of them of that.

 

I suspect we won't agree on anything tonight, possibly ever. If you want to better understand my point of view, read the book 'The New Jim Crow'. My brother was a public defender in Indianapolis. He freely admitted about half his clients were guilty. The other half fell into the categories that the book describes. I don't have time to summarize it; we will agree to disagree.

[Josh]

 

There's also the killings of completely non violent non criminals, like this 2nd amendment supporter. The NRA was strangely silent about the incident.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

The NRA isn't going to comment about every shooting. Generally they're not going to lionize folks who are breaking the law by using illegal drugs AND carrying arms because that's still quite illegal under federal law.

 

You DO want the NRA to be for abiding by federal and state gun laws right? OR is it ok to be stoned and carry a gun? Personally, I don't train friends who I know who use drugs for fun because that crosses some lines that have federal jail time attached if it gets too closely crossed up. I certainly can't and don't touch anything but what is strictly legal (port, beer, scotch, wine, that's it).

 

 

As far as I know this was a shoot against a law abiding citizen who legally carried and informed officers he was carrying. I am aware of any criminal activity in this particular case, both priors and during incident.

[Nobu]

One side is working for a vision where money is no longer a consideration you know.

 

Telling that side what it wants to hear is the road to monetization. That road is not necessarily one-way.

[Josh]

 

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

What was the effect of the Knapp Commission? Police can be sued in Civil Court. It's qualified immunity there are qualifiers. For good reasons. I've had two friends who were in APD's internal Affairs units. Both stated that they had real cases where they got cops for real corruption. But that they ALSO had folks who came in with flagrantly false accusations.

 

Another cop friend had a woman make claims specifically counter to what his dash cam recorded and that her presumptive allegations of abusive language and behavior that was supposed to be the lynch pin of her lawsuit evaporated when he, his supervisor, her, her attorney AND her 'minister' all viewed the tape together, with the Lawyer being visibly embarrassed by the revaluation that his client had fabricated EVERYTHING. Everything but the bruised arm from when my friend GRABBED her arm to stop her lunging for the glove box to get her paperwork. The minister was NOT apologetic about the false claims.

 

 

BLM is a peaceful protest movement.

No they're not. Their slogan is LITERALLY no justice, NO Peace. Peaceful protests don't hinder, harm and threaten people in the regular goings on of their daily lives. Protests that block interstates on a routine basis are not peaceful. And frankly, the mass of rioting over the past 2 weeks WITH justifications of that rioting by folks saying there's nothing else to do, literally takes that "peaceful" argument out behind the wood shed and treats it like old yeller.

 

The objective of BLM to tear down statutes ranging from Jefferson, to Lincoln, to monuments to confederate dead to pretty much anyone else, even statutes to reconciliation after the civil war ALSO puts paid to that peaceful argument.

 

If you and I had a disagreement and I went and burned your wife's car, would you consider that peaceful? I think not.

 

 

Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

And yet the left has not done much condemnation of antifa. So....here we are. With 2 weeks of rioting across the country and folks unable to even state what the problem is and propose a rational solution that's not out of a sketch by Monty Python

 

 

I'm hardly proposing defunding the police and most practical people aren't either. I think Camden's solution is illustrative but largely impossible to duplicate in most situations. 'Defund the police' is at lot easier to print or chant than 'retrain and reform the police and make sure there is a system to hold them accountable', in much the same way saying 'lock her up' is an easy way to denote dissatisfaction with democrats even the the target in question isn't running for any office.

[Josh]

Good night.

[JasonJ]

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. Police are also humans. So if tbe environment gles bad and they are sandwiched between bad enrionment and dysfunctional laws that hamper on police effectiveness, then it should be expected that errors in the force will increase. That doesn't go as far as entirely excusing police errors. But BLM related activities being triggered from the police error is exceeding by far a reasonable reaction. Rather what it is doing is forming an additional pressure point to the already bad environment and dysnfunctional laws.

 

The problem is that problem officers are never held accountable in practice. Only in the last couple years with phone photage have officers actually been dismissed, and only in the last year or so have they actually been charged with murder. And police are free to move from department to department to erase their records; there is no national or even state record in most cases. Switch jobs, you're a good apple again. Police also cannot be sued in a civil court in most states.

If that's the case, then only that should be pressed into the agenda.

The BLM and Antifa stuff needs to be outright denounced from the left.

BLM is a peaceful protest movement. Antifa is an amorphous movement that seems variously composed of left wing thugs and opportunistic looters. I'd say yes the left should at least condemn Aunti tiffa, but then I also would say that Trump should condemn white supremacists explicitly. Which one of those will happen first?

The problem with BLM is that it does not describe the problems that you just stated. Instead it is encouraging the passive creation of white guilt and the passive acceptance of no self improvement among the blacks.

I don't believe that is any of their actual slogans. Perhaps we could shoot for police reform and then accuse of them of that.

 

I suspect we won't agree on anything tonight, possibly ever. If you want to better understand my point of view, read the book 'The New Jim Crow'. My brother was a public defender in Indianapolis. He freely admitted about half his clients were guilty. The other half fell into the categories that the book describes. I don't have time to summarize it; we will agree to disagree.

I think that sounds like a very fine book. I am open to having the information about police abuses being made open and more known.

 

But BLM is not trying expand the condition of being well known. It is dumbing things down. I see no reason why any denouncing the BLM movement and its inherent effects should have to wait for police reform. In fact, it be strange to push for police reform before putting those kinds of details on the table beforehand.

[rmgill]

My apologies. So based on those horrific experiences, you still don't think there should be a greater effort to hold police accountable?

 

When the cops ACTUALLY do wrong. Yes. But that means you have to wait for the facts and not go off half cocked based on the first partial video that shows some random person ranting about what didn't actually happen and just go with that hot take.

 

It took NINE MONTHS for there to be charges against Mohommad Noor in the case of Justine Diamond's murder. It was hotly discussed across gun boards across the country. It was a total of 21 months before a conviction was established and sentencing carried out. There were plenty of hot takes. But folks ALSO wanted to see a good process. When a black man was killed in the same city by a white officer AFTER resisting (compared to Justine doing ZERO that was grounds for an arrest, let alone deadly force) there was rioting across the country not barely 5 days afterwards.

 

We can find PLENTY of cases of police malfeasance across the board. But just because your hot take says it's malfeasance doesn't mean it is. And presuming that there's ALWAYS a racial component, judging people's thoughts based on their outward appearances doesn't fly with me (who's prejudiced again?).

 

We gunnies didn't riot when Mitch" Brailsford played simon says with Daniel Shaver and then shot him dead for failing to carry out the cruel and contradictory orders at the barrel of a gun. Should we have? Who's house should we have burned down?

 

Instead of being an asshole and calling every case bad, I try to look at as much evidence on the incident as possible, and think about the situation from both person's points of view. I have literally been on both sides of the argument where I was about to shoot someone (3 someones) AND where I was detained by police for being VERY armed. In both cases it worked out thankfully short of anything beyond some harsh language. I've been on record of this board also of being adamant that after an incident like some sort of shooting to wait at least 48 hours for more info to come in so we can do something more wise and not go off half cocked and then look like dumbasses in the process.

 

 

[JasonJ]

Good night.

Have a good night.

[rmgill]

As far as I know this was a shoot against a law abiding citizen who legally carried and informed officers he was carrying. I am aware of any criminal activity in this particular case, both priors and during incident.

 

Have you watched the footage of the stop at the Wendy's off of University avenue in Atlanta? the one that Brooks died at? Tell Look at the conversation and look at the fight.

 

Now, think of EVERY encounter you have with 1/2 the people you work with can got that direction at the drop of a hat, up to and including you being shot just suddenly.

 

Like this:

 

Now, in Castile's case the officer CLEARLY did the wrong thing and was jumpy. I've encountered similarly somewhat jumpy officers. You know what I did? I was slow, I kept my hands out and I didn't fiddle with my pockets. I deliberately interlaced my fingers in front of me and did what they said. Due to the circumstances I could tell BOTH were nervous and I did what I could to make it clear I was not a threat.

 

Josh, ever see this incident before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsrC5QV_Yrc

[Nobu]

This is a position where Trump could take on a leadership role then to prove he's above political infighting and race baiting.

 

He actually has in the past, which makes his doing so now a possibility at least.

[rmgill]

I'm hardly proposing defunding the police and most practical people aren't either. I think Camden's solution is illustrative but largely impossible to duplicate in most situations. 'Defund the police' is at lot easier to print or chant than 'retrain and reform the police and make sure there is a system to hold them accountable', in much the same way saying 'lock her up' is an easy way to denote dissatisfaction with democrats even the the target in question isn't running for any office.

 

 

Police reform isn't going to fix the poverty you see in the inner city with the segments of the population that everyone has deemed as being the targets of systemic racism. Instead it turns into how we can apologize for things we don't do while ignoring the things that need to actually happen.

 

Fixing the schools so these kids have something other than violent crime to turn to would be a good start. Fixing the economic wasteland the cities are would also be a good start. Instead we're going the opposite way. The tax base is being punished, we're all self flagellating as to how we're guilty of sin and not actually fixing ANY of the actual problems.

[Soren Ras]

Popular mechanics: How to Topple a Statue Using Science

Bring that sucker down without anyone getting hurt.

By James Stout

Jun 15, 2020

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32870657/remove-statue-science/?fbclid=IwAR2IIslb7eNFVpsWP2cn2BrnC_cb9KHwjo7aW5xBgoQGeFELILCPPMtdpNw

 

Disappointing to realize that Popular Mechanics, which was once about constructing and building things, has placed itself firmly on the burn-it-all-down side of the culture war. We can add this to the Egyptologist who recently explained in detail how to pull down offending obelisks. The Taliban must be so proud.

 

 

 

Should you happen to find yourself near a statue that you decide you no longer like, we asked scientists for the best, safest ways to bring it to the ground without anyone getting hurt—except, of course, for the inanimate racist who’s been dead for a century anyway.

Yes, this is all you need to proceed - "you decide you no longer like" X - that makes it fine to proceed with ropes, butane torches and thermite. Petitioning the municipal authorities or the institution on whose grounds the statue sits to get the offending statue removed by democratic means is so gauche and uncool, I guess. Feelings don't care about facts or anything except immediate gratification right effing NOW!!!

 

Slightly surprised they didn't include how to make your own explosives as well, but presumably there was an editor with an eye towards legal matters. Or maybe that is coming next month.

 

Look at that.

Oh, well done.

 

On to the next.

And the next.

Popular Mechanics has your back.

 

--

Soren