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If wishes were horses. Talk about hypotheticals that are unfounded.
He wasn’t in rehab.

He wasn’t in jail.

He wasn’t in the funny farm. He was going around attacking people as he wished.

How many other people did he attack and the cause was unknown? A grown, 30 yo man slugging elderly women can easily result in the death. 

So, hypothetically, R011, you’re on the subway and this dude goes at an elderly woman. What are you going to do? Whats the alternative? Stand there like a wimp and let him attack an old lady? 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, rmgill said:

So, hypothetically, R011, you’re on the subway and this dude goes at an elderly woman. What are you going to do? Whats the alternative? Stand there like a wimp and let him attack an old lady? 

Like the emasculated "men" in the video link I just posted, he would probably feel quite confident ignoring the attack.

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

Except his life.  Something like this would have happened to him eventually, whether acidentally like in this case or deliberately.  He should have been in a secure hospital getting treatment or at least being isolated from potential victims.

Yeah, that's the story for many of the "street crimmos" that Prog DAs seem to tolerate. Alive they 'redistribute wealth' and are signs of the governance's 'magnanimity', but dead they become useful 'martyrs'--and, of course 'resisters' get to be "made examples of".

Edited by NickM
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48 minutes ago, rmgill said:

If wishes were horses. Talk about hypotheticals that are unfounded.
He wasn’t in rehab.

He wasn’t in jail.

He wasn’t in the funny farm. He was going around attacking people as he wished.

How many other people did he attack and the cause was unknown? A grown, 30 yo man slugging elderly women can easily result in the death. 

So, hypothetically, R011, you’re on the subway and this dude goes at an elderly woman. What are you going to do? Whats the alternative? Stand there like a wimp and let him attack an old lady? 
 

 

 

44 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

Like the emasculated "men" in the video link I just posted, he would probably feel quite confident ignoring the attack.

Let's be clear, Dave is Canadian Army Vet and definitely not a 'wimpy guy'.

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40 minutes ago, NickM said:

 

Let's be clear, Dave is Canadian Army Vet and definitely not a 'wimpy guy'.

So what is the alternative response that maximizes control of the deranged man and minimizes risk to everyone else. This isn’t a bar fight where you can use your web belt and expect a kinda sorta fair fight before the RP/MPs show up to break it up. 

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Apparenlyt muy only options are do nothing or commit murder.  That's sounds a lot like a flase dichotomy argument to me and is typical of Ryan's style.

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1 hour ago, rmgill said:

So what is the alternative response that maximizes control of the deranged man and minimizes risk to everyone else. This isn’t a bar fight where you can use your web belt and expect a kinda sorta fair fight before the RP/MPs show up to break it up. 

I've actually made violent arrests of people much like Neely.  Somehow, niether I nor the people with me managed to kill anyone.  It seems there's lots of places you can grab a resisting suspect besides around the neck.

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

I've actually made violent arrests of people much like Neely.  Somehow, niether I nor the people with me managed to kill anyone.  It seems there's lots of places you can grab a resisting suspect besides around the neck.

 

Ideally, the 'Po Po' would be there to round up guys like Neely, but "TPTB" in NYC seem to be discouraging such actions.  Like I said, they can be both 'martyrs' and 'examples' to the Plebeians.

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3 hours ago, NickM said:

 

Ideally, the 'Po Po' would be there to round up guys like Neely, but "TPTB" in NYC seem to be discouraging such actions.  Like I said, they can be both 'martyrs' and 'examples' to the Plebeians.

I imagine Penny was doing his best to restrain a resisting criminal and didn't mean for Neely to die, but he did.  In my opinion, it is proper to put this before a jury, show them all the available evidence, and let them decide.  This isn't like the bodega worker who shot an armed robber.

Edited by R011
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9 hours ago, R011 said:

Except his life.  Something like this would have happened to him eventually, whether acidentally like in this case or deliberately.  He should have been in a secure hospital getting treatment or at least being isolated from potential victims.

You are quite right. And the fact over whether it was justifiable homocide or not detracts from the wider problem, there are a lot of crazy people on the streets whom nobody seems to be treating. Or for that matter, even interested in treating.

 

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11 hours ago, R011 said:

Apparenlyt muy only options are do nothing or commit murder.  That's sounds a lot like a flase dichotomy argument to me and is typical of Ryan's style.

No, I've invited you to explain the way you'd thread the needle. I didn't give you a multiple choice finite option set. Give us your wisdom of Canadian niceness. What would you do in Trudeau-istan if a crazed man was doing as described. 

 

11 hours ago, R011 said:

I've actually made violent arrests of people much like Neely.  Somehow, niether I nor the people with me managed to kill anyone.  It seems there's lots of places you can grab a resisting suspect besides around the neck.

So what did you do? Was this based on training? Or innate wisdom? 

Edited by rmgill
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5 hours ago, R011 said:

I imagine Penny was doing his best to restrain a resisting criminal and didn't mean for Neely to die, but he did.  In my opinion, it is proper to put this before a jury, show them all the available evidence, and let them decide.  This isn't like the bodega worker who shot an armed robber.

So what's a proportional force use that will NEVER result in the death of the violent criminal? 

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On 5/16/2023 at 9:16 PM, DKTanker said:

You give somebody a light shove because they were about to fall on you, they fall backward instead and their neck snaps.  Was deadly force used?

Dunno about US law, but there is an English law principle that amounts to ignoring any pre-existing weaknesses in the person on the receiving end. A bouncer here killed a club goer with a single punch that would not have likely killed anyone, but the person he hit had a very thin skull, which broke and resulted in a brain hemorrhage and then death. Because the bouncer was trained, he should have used other methods first, and because the person died it went from assault to manslaughter. He did time.

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On 5/15/2023 at 1:53 PM, 17thfabn said:

Then you know a lot more than I.

There's not a lot that needs to be known.  When the story broke we had a homeless/mentally ill man having an episode on the subway.  We had a bystander subdue him which leads to his death.  Apparently there's a video of the entire thing and witnesses, along with the one making the video, claimed Neely was never violent (just like that BBC article you linked mentioned).  Initial witness accounts made it sound like he wasn't necessarily threatening other passengers directly (apparently he was talking in third person and just not making a lot of sense).  The autopsy stated it was homicide from being choked to death.  Pretty clear cut, really.

Since then I haven't seen a lot to change my mind.  Folks have actually looked at NYC law and it's pretty clear when actions Penny took are justified (imminent threat... which from most accounts of this wasn't the case).  Penny and a few witnesses have now claimed it was self defense... but even looking at this sympathetic article from FOX News yesterday there's no mention of Neely being violent.

In the last week with this story gaining more traction I've seen accounts of NYers mention that running into mentally ill individuals isn't uncommon.  I reached out to a friend out there to see how accurate it was.  His response was along the lines of some crazy guy starts shouting on the train... you move to a different one.  Happens far too much but actual violence is rare according to him.  He has no worries for his safety riding the subway.

The real issue in this story isn't some DA appearing to make a political move (as mentioned, per NYC law and eyewitness accounts this sounds like a justified charge against Penny) but rather another example of the lack of mental healthcare in this country.  My friend mentioned the vibe he's picking up in NYC isn't that folks blame Penny... they blame the city and police for doing nothing about this issue.

That may be one of two things going in Penny's favor - it sounds like he'll likely get a sympathetic jury which could just ignore the law and acquit.  The other thing that could help him is if this full video does exist and it shows imminent threat that Penny was reacting to (but, again, most witnesses aren't saying this was the case).

Edited by Skywalkre
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Could be penny has seen the individual before and might even be aware of his past history. His lawyers might be holding that information for any potentiel courtcase.

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https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2023/05/19/witness-says-daniel-penny-is-a-hero-we-were-scared-for-our-lives-n1696605

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“He’s a hero,” said the passenger, a minority woman who has resided in New York City for over five decades. She told Fox News Digital, “It was self-defense, and I believe in my heart that he saved a lot of people that day that could have gotten hurt.”

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The witness, unable to see clearly due to limited visibility, heard a thumping sound when Penny brought Neely to the ground. She waited for the arrival of the police and provided a statement regarding the incident. She expressed that Penny’s actions were driven by his care for people, which she considered his only “crime.” Several passengers, including herself, thanked Penny for his intervention.

However, the witness noticed that Penny appeared shaken after the altercation. She emphasized that Penny had no intention of causing harm or killing Neely, which was evident from his distraught and visibly distressed state. Despite the distress, Penny chose not to flee the scene but stayed until the authorities arrived.

 

 

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If justice demands Penny face a trial of his peers, I think justice demands that lawyers face a jury of their peers in criminal court on obstruction and similar charges, every time they are accused of illegal/unethical misdeeds.

Heck, judges who reduce sentences resulting in subsequent violence should be remanded into custody without bond for their trials. 

 

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https://www.foxnews.com/us/witness-jordan-neely-chokehold-death-calls-daniel-penny-hero

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In 2021, he punched a 67-year-old woman in the face, breaking her nose and eye socket.

He has cycled in and out of hospitals and jails his entire adult life and was on the city’s "Top 50" list of homeless people most in need of outreach.

 

 

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https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2023/05/19/the-new-trans-patriarchy-washington-official-screams-at-female-victim-of-sexual-battery-n1696613

Quote

 

An unthinkable thing happened at the King County Regional Homelessness Authority board in Seattle when the co-chair, Shanee Colston, began screaming at a female board member for raising concerns about appointing a sex offender to the board.

The really bizarre part was that the woman had a personal experience with the sex offender that she says resulted in unwanted touching or sexual battery, and she was trying to tell Colston that she wouldn’t feel safe being in the same room as the man.

 

 

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