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I think debate about an incident based upon video of only the last three minutes, and hindsight reports about the deceased's prior record which is unlikely to have been known to those present, is rather futile, too. Mayor Adams has been rather hands-off in commentary, which I credit to his professional experience as a cop.

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The man’s behavior in the moment is quite relevant. His background lends consistency to the behavior and characteristic understanding.
 

As to if it was strangulation of the airway and not due to the restriction of blood flow and then being placed in a recovery position as apparently video shows is relevant. If he had toxicological issues that the Marine and two other men who worked to restrain him could not have known then that would mitigate the reckless aspect of the

 

For record, the TBS/CNN/Warner Brothers HQ in New York has had a car service picking up folks to go home for those leaving in the evening because the subway is not considered safe. Likewise, they have had a car service to collect guests at Union Station to take to the CNN bureau in DC. The CNN bureau is on 1st street. You can see Union Station from the bureau which is at H street and 1st. 

These urban centers are getting dangerous. Mentally ill people are allowed to do what they want. Crime stats don’t track the incidents because they aren’t considered reportable or the victims don’t bother unless it’s notable. 

 

Edited by rmgill
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2 hours ago, R011 said:

He died from being strangled.  That's deadly force.  That there is no provable intent to kill makes it manslaughter rather than murder.  Whether it was a deliberate use of deadly force or force a reasonable person would know to be deadly will be up to the jury to decide.

You give somebody a light shove because they were about to fall on you, they fall backward instead and their neck snaps.  Was deadly force used?

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10 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

You give somebody a light shove because they were about to fall on you, they fall backward instead and their neck snaps.  Was deadly force used?

Putting your arm over someone's throat so he can't breathe is obviously deadly force.  The jury will decide if that's what happened or if this was just a head lock that went wrong that no resaonable person would think would cause death or greivous bodily harm.

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36 minutes ago, R011 said:

Putting your arm over someone's throat so he can't breathe is obviously deadly force.  The jury will decide if that's what happened or if this was just a head lock that went wrong that no resaonable person would think would cause death or greivous bodily harm.

You didn't answer the question.  Duly noted.

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1 hour ago, DKTanker said:

You didn't answer the question.  Duly noted.

Question not relevant.  Duly noted.  Implied argument countered with no meaningful reply from you.  Also noted.

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2 hours ago, R011 said:

Putting your arm over someone's throat so he can't breathe is obviously deadly force.  The jury will decide if that's what happened or if this was just a head lock that went wrong that no resaonable person would think would cause death or greivous bodily harm.

So when it’s done in martial arts training or MMA it’s all examples of deadly force?
 

There’s a choke hold where you put the larynx in the crook of the arm and squeeze to crush the throat.
 

Then there’s the arm bar where you squeeze the sides of the neck to occlude blood flow for enough time to cause unconsciousness. 
 

The two are superficially similar. 

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2 hours ago, R011 said:

Putting your arm over someone's throat so he can't breathe is obviously deadly force.  The jury will decide if that's what happened or if this was just a head lock that went wrong that no resaonable person would think would cause death or greivous bodily harm.

Autopsy determined cause of death will state more factually than some random claim on the internet. 

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1 hour ago, rmgill said:

So when it’s done in martial arts training or MMA it’s all examples of deadly force?
 

Do they try to stop someone from breathing until they die in MMA or matial arts training?  If not, then it's not deadly force.

Quote

 

There’s a choke hold where you put the larynx in the crook of the arm and squeeze to crush the throat.
 

Then there’s the arm bar where you squeeze the sides of the neck to occlude blood flow for enough time to cause unconsciousness. 
 

The two are superficially similar. 

 

Neely died of asphixiation , so it clearly wasn't just an arm bar that looked like a choke hold.  Whether it was meant to be a choke hold or whether a reasonable person would know it was a choke hold will be important to the jury.

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1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Autopsy determined cause of death will state more factually than some random claim on the internet. 

Yes, it did.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/medical-examiner-rules-jordan-neelys-death-a-homicide-after-subway-choking/

"The city medical examiner has ruled the death of a homeless man choked by a Marine on the subway earlier this week a homicide — as prosecutors mulled whether to pursue charges.

Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."

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55 minutes ago, R011 said:

Do they try to stop someone from breathing until they die in MMA or matial arts training?  If not, then it's not deadly force.

If I shoot someone and they don't die, is that then not deadly force?  It is deadly force, even if they don't die. Because death is a likely result. 

MMA fights are performed routinely with this sort of hold and it's not deadly force. 

55 minutes ago, R011 said:

Neely died of asphixiation , so it clearly wasn't just an arm bar that looked like a choke hold.  Whether it was meant to be a choke hold or whether a reasonable person would know it was a choke hold will be important to the jury.

 


7 Years ago...
 

 

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

Yes, it did.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/medical-examiner-rules-jordan-neelys-death-a-homicide-after-subway-choking/

"The city medical examiner has ruled the death of a homeless man choked by a Marine on the subway earlier this week a homicide — as prosecutors mulled whether to pursue charges.

Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."

Well, obviously a homicide. A person died. This is sort of a DUH moment. 

The question is if it was justified or not. 

Rear naked choke holds are NOT by default deadly force any more than punches are. That they MAY result in death doesn't make them deadly force. It must be that one expects them to cause death. 

Defense of one's self AND others (note 2 other people also assisted in the restraint of Neely, it wasn't just Penny) is a valid reason for use of force. 

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php#p35.10

This case is excessively political by clear dint of what the left has been pushing for this to be a murder charge. Naturally the race entirely matters to the left's narrative here. 

 

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41 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Well, obviously a homicide. A person died. This is sort of a DUH moment. 

The question is if it was justified or not. 

Rear naked choke holds are NOT by default deadly force any more than punches are. That they MAY result in death doesn't make them deadly force. It must be that one expects them to cause death. 

Defense of one's self AND others (note 2 other people also assisted in the restraint of Neely, it wasn't just Penny) is a valid reason for use of force. 

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php#p35.10

This case is excessively political by clear dint of what the left has been pushing for this to be a murder charge. Naturally the race entirely matters to the left's narrative here. 

 

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article10.php#p1011
  
11. "Deadly physical force" means physical force which, under the
circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death
or other serious physical injury.

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php#p35.10

2.  A  person  may  not  use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
  (a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is  using  or
about  to  use  deadly  physical  force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or  she  knows  that  with
complete  personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is  under  no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
  (i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
  (ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
  (b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape,  forcible  criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
  (c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or  attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.

Explain to me how choking a person is not deadly physical force.  Are you seriously trying to claim it is not is "readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury" especially givern that Neely, in fact, died. 

MMA fights are performed routinely with this sort of hold and it's not deadly force

I very much doubt that they actually deliberately choke anyone, let alone choke them to death no matter what the holds they use look like.  This, of course, wasn't an MMA fight

 

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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/equality-not-elitism/la-dodgers-award-to-anti-catholic-drag-group-condemned-rubio

Quote

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers baseball team is facing accusations of anti-Catholic bigotry after the team announced it would honor a gay and transgender group that uses Catholic imagery in sexualized contexts.

The Dodgers and LA Pride announced earlier this month that the team would be marking "Pride Night" on June 16, 2023, and that the celebrations would include the presentation of the Community Hero Award to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, a self-described "leading-edge Order of queer and trans nuns."

In a letter to Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) noted that the group has "mocked and degraded Christians, and especially Catholics, since its founding on Easter Sunday in 1979." He also noted that the group's motto is "go and sin some more," which perverts the words of Jesus Christ, who said "go and sin no more."

 

 

Genius move in a county wherein folks of Latin American origins are 50% of the population.

 

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9 hours ago, R011 said:

 

I very much doubt that they actually deliberately choke anyone, let alone choke them to death no matter what the holds they use look like.  This, of course, wasn't an MMA fight

 

It's a risk in fights that people will die. It's a risk in sports that people will die from head trauma. It's not a likely risk, it's a low order risk. That doesn't make them deadly force. Otherwise, in those circumstances it would be a chargeable offense every time they perform such acts in sports even if someone doesn't die. It's not. 

You've not really answered the other hypotheticals that if someone is punched, falls over and dies that that's also a chargeable offense. I think in this incident, if it's proven that Neely was offering a threat to multiple individuals on the F Train, that restraining him til police arrived was justifiable force, even If it did incidentally result in his death. That he was after unconsciousness, placed in a recovery position indicates a lack of desire to kill him. 

You and the other liberals are rapidly running things into a direction where people cannot and will not defend themselves and that criminals are given the upper hand because you haven't the stomach to deal with them becasue bad things may happen.  Guess what, when dealing with criminals it is sometimes difficult. 

I think this is an example of a justifiable homicide based on the facts I have seen. It's not ideal but then a 40 time arrestee was out walking around where he could harass and attack people with seeming impunity. 

I'm still trying to figure out why folks like you seemingly want a bunch of Ken McElroy's walking around doing what they want to anyone they choose to. 

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21 minutes ago, rmgill said:

 I think in this incident, if it's proven that Neely was offering a threat to multiple individuals on the F Train, that restraining him til police arrived was justifiable force

How many people in the past had Neely injured, and if he has, were any of the injuries serious life-threatening?

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A man who was assaulted by Jordan Neelyin 2019 is weighing on the subway attack—and he says he wishes the homeless man killed by an ex-Marine on Monday had’ve been in a rehab facility. Filemon Castillo Baltazar told the New York Daily News that he was waiting for a train in the Greenwich Village in 2019 when Neely approached him out of nowhere and punched him in the head, eventually leading Neely to be charged with assault in a case that has since been sealed. “He should have been in some rehab center,” Baltazar said, adding that he had seen Neely “looking for food in the garbage” multiple times before. Neely assaulted an elderly woman in a similar fashion in 2021, landing him in an alternative-to-incarceration program for 15 months. Baltazar said he didn’t know what to think of this week’s shocking incident but he believed the ex-Marine, identified by media outlets as Daniel Penny, “shouldn’t be punished.”

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/assault-victim-says-he-wishes-jordan-neely-had-been-in-rehab

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“"This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we're glad to give it to you," New York County (Manhattan) Assistant District Attorney Mary Weisgerber naively told the late Jordan Neely in court on February 9, 2023. On that date, Neely, a 30-year-old homeless man suffering from severe mental illness and reported drug abuse, learned that he would not be sentenced to prison after pleading guilty to his brutal November 2021 assault of a 67-year-old woman on a Lower East Side street. Neely had punched the woman so hard that he inflicted severe facial damage, including a broken nose. Instead, despite more than 40 prior arrests, including at least three for assault, he was ordered to spend 15 months in a public mental health facility, take prescribed medication, and avoid use of narcotics.”

 

https://www.newsweek.com/oppressed-new-yorkers-have-right-self-defense-opinion-1799228?amp=1

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7 hours ago, glenn239 said:

How many people in the past had Neely injured, and if he has, were any of the injuries serious life-threatening?

It's kinda like that "Bronx Sucker Punch Guy" got away with belting the man in the head, until bad publicity got the better of the NYC DA (who was busy with 'Orange Man Bad type activities). Slugging a couple of 'nobodys' cost Neely nothing.

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9 hours ago, rmgill said:

It's a risk in fights that people will die. It's a risk in sports that people will die from head trauma. It's not a likely risk, it's a low order risk. That doesn't make them deadly force. Otherwise, in those circumstances it would be a chargeable offense every time they perform such acts in sports even if someone doesn't die. It's not. 

You've not really answered the other hypotheticals that if someone is punched, falls over and dies that that's also a chargeable offense. I think in this incident, if it's proven that Neely was offering a threat to multiple individuals on the F Train, that restraining him til police arrived was justifiable force, even If it did incidentally result in his death. That he was after unconsciousness, placed in a recovery position indicates a lack of desire to kill him. 

You and the other liberals are rapidly running things into a direction where people cannot and will not defend themselves and that criminals are given the upper hand because you haven't the stomach to deal with them becasue bad things may happen.  Guess what, when dealing with criminals it is sometimes difficult. 

I think this is an example of a justifiable homicide based on the facts I have seen. It's not ideal but then a 40 time arrestee was out walking around where he could harass and attack people with seeming impunity. 

I'm still trying to figure out why folks like you seemingly want a bunch of Ken McElroy's walking around doing what they want to anyone they choose to. 

Fuck hypotheticals.  Penny killed Neely by choking him to death.  Nothing hypothetical there.  If there's a safe way to chokke hold/arm bar/headlock someone, Penny obviously didn't do it because Neely died from being choked.

Now the DA obviously can't prove that penny did so deliberaely, and indeed it's doesn't seem likely that Neely was deliberately killed, but Penny did kill him without legal justification.  The only question is whether this was just happenstance that Penny could not rasonably foresee or not.  That's why it's going to a jury.

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1 hour ago, NickM said:

It's kinda like that "Bronx Sucker Punch Guy" got away with belting the man in the head, until bad publicity got the better of the NYC DA (who was busy with 'Orange Man Bad type activities). Slugging a couple of 'nobodys' cost Neely nothing.

Except his life.  Something like this would have happened to him eventually, whether acidentally like in this case or deliberately.  He should have been in a secure hospital getting treatment or at least being isolated from potential victims.

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I suppose the world is always in need of those that will carry water for and defend society's vermin and parasites thus promoting a society in which no good deed goes unpunished.

This is the society they apparently want.  One in which men will refuse to come to the aid of women being abused by out of control men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzzRA_9sIa8

 

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