Luftwaffe Hornets?

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 hours ago, Josh said:

I feel like it would make more sense to just use the F-35 in that role and buy some extras; it is an out of the box SEAD/ECR aircraft anyway.

With F35, you are to a large extent playing for the stealth, both in cost and in payload. So why use a stealth aircraft as a basis for a platform that is going to spend most of its time emitting energy? Its rather a waste.

Rafale might make the best compromise because its relatively stealthy, but I guess politics will have implications.

[Yama]

12 hours ago, Josh said:

I can't imagine it is more sophisticated than F-35 given the pace of technology. F-35 has wide band coverage in 360 degrees and can triangulate among its fellow aircraft with a directional data link in effectively real time.

It's well possible it is more elaborate and capable in some respects: as advanced as ASQ-239 is, it is still relatively lightweight system compared to those installed in dedicated EW platforms. Also I very much doubt that F-35 has 'wide band coverage 360 degrees', lower band receivers are bulky and limited to where they can be installed.

[Josh]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:01 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

With F35, you are to a large extent playing for the stealth, both in cost and in payload. So why use a stealth aircraft as a basis for a platform that is going to spend most of its time emitting energy? Its rather a waste.

Rafale might make the best compromise because its relatively stealthy, but I guess politics will have implications.

Does the ECR role actually emit energy? My understanding was that it featured self protection jamming but was not an offensive ECM platform. If that's the case, F-35 has all of the ESM and EO/IR for the role of EC/R and plenty of self protecting jamming capability, were it necessary, with low RCS on top. If the Tornados didn't have a wide band standoff jamming capability like ALQ-99, I don't see why an F-35 couldn't fulfill the role without modification?

[Stuart Galbraith]

I understood the ECR had jammers, but I seemingly  have a basic misunderstanding of what Electronic combat in Luftwaffe Parlance means. All It has is a Texas instruments radar location system.

https://www.panavia.de/aircraft/systems-and-capabilities/ecr/

I would have thought drones might be a better choice. Certainly a hell of a lot cheaper anyway.

[Dawes]

Wonder how the Tornado ECR compared to the old F-4G Wild Weasel?

[Yama]

6 hours ago, Josh said:

Does the ECR role actually emit energy? My understanding was that it featured self protection jamming but was not an offensive ECM platform. If that's the case, F-35 has all of the ESM and EO/IR for the role of EC/R and plenty of self protecting jamming capability, were it necessary, with low RCS on top. If the Tornados didn't have a wide band standoff jamming capability like ALQ-99, I don't see why an F-35 couldn't fulfill the role without modification?

F-35 does not have an active jammer and at the moment, there is no plan to integrate NGJ. It can do offensive jamming via its radar, but this has obvious limitations.

[lucklucky]

Quote

 If that's the case, F-35 has all of the ESM and EO/IR for the role of EC/R and plenty of self protecting jamming capability

Not all ESM are created equal, library size, sensitivity and detail in collecting data,  capacity of processing the data - like making triangulation just by moving the aircraft if you go on about 90º of incoming waves - 

ECR at least Italian have ECM for self defence not offensive, offensive ECM go in external pods , i mostly see BOZ chaff/flares-towed decoy.

[lucklucky]

7 hours ago, Dawes said:

Wonder how the Tornado ECR compared to the old F-4G Wild Weasel?

A couple of generations younger so should be quite superior.

[Simon Tan]

Here I thought it was about the Heinkel Hornisse.

[sunday]

Not Heinkel. Messerschmitt Me 410. The Heinkel was the He 219 Uhu.

[BansheeOne]

Training on F-35 for Luftwaffe pilots in the US is to start in 2026, with IOC the next year. Unsurprisingly, the aircraft will be based in Büchel with its nuclear storage facility.

[lucklucky]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/07/15/italy-f-35-maintenance-hub-opens-for-international-customers-with-norwegian-jet/

Quote

In March, Switzerland said at least 24 of the 36 F-35s it plans to buy would be assembled at Cameri after talks with the U.S. government and Leonardo. The first eight planes Switzerland will obtain will be assembled at Lockheed Martin’s Fort Worth, Texas plant before they are used for pilot training in the U.S.

Switzerland said it was in talks with Lockheed Martin for a further four to be assembled in Switzerland as part of an offset program with local firm RUAG. Meanwhile, a German military delegation visited Cameri earlier this year to inspect the site with an eye toward employing it for assembly work when Berlin buys the F-35.

 

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Germany's Rheinmetall starts building F-35 fuselage plant

1 hour ago

German arms producer Rheinmetall is to begin manufacturing parts for F-35 stealth aircraft from 2025 in a new plant. The factory is the first such investment by a German weapons manufacturer since Russia invaded Ukraine.

The German arms manufacturer Rheinmetall on Tuesday marked the construction launch of a new factory in the western town of Weeze that will produce fuselage sections for the F-35 stealth combat aircraft.

The premier of the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, Hendrik Wüst, took part in a ground-breaking ceremony at the construction site, saying that "a highly modern factory is to be built here that will guarantee good jobs for decades."

Rheinmetall is a partner of the US company Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-35 together with Northrop Grumman, another US firm.

Major commission

The factory, which is estimated to cost €200 million ($219 million) and will have an area of some 60,000 square meters (645,835 square feet), is to go into operation in 2025.

Its up to 450 workers will produce the fuselage parts for at least 400 of the aircraft, 35 of which are earmarked for use by Germany's armed forces at a cost of €8.3 billion. Those aircraft are being purchased as part of the €100 billion package agreed by the government last year to upgrade the country's military.

The other planes, whose delivery is scheduled to start in 2026, will likely be purchased by other NATO partners. The remaining components for the aircraft are to be supplied by other manufacturers, meaning that Rheinmetall will receive only a small part of the proceeds.

[...]

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-rheinmetall-starts-building-f-35-fuselage-plant/a-66406164

[Dawes]

Does Rheinmetall have experience  building aircraft?

[Ssnake]

I'd say, more experience in shooting them down, actually. But maybe Lockheed chose them just because they are not Airbus and have no strong ties to the European aerospace industry.

[Stuart Galbraith]

At this point, im beginning to think the best thing that happened to BAE was being refused by the British Government permission to merge with EADS.

Good luck to Rheinmetall.

[BansheeOne]

The Bundestag's budget committee has authorized procurement of 15 Eurofighter EK which will replace Tornado ECR. These will be equipped with Saab's Arexis AI-supported sensor/jammer suite, and Northrop Grumman's AARGM. System integration is expected for 2028, NATO certification for 2030.

[Dawes]

Media reports indicate that these will be single-seat airframes, as opposed to aircraft like the Growler or Tornado ECR. Presumably technology will play a major role in managing the pilot's workload?

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, Dawes said:

Media reports indicate that these will be single-seat airframes, as opposed to aircraft like the Growler or Tornado ECR. Presumably technology will play a major role in managing the pilot's workload?

More likely due to save money from having to retool the assemply line to build new two seaters EW jets. The T2's line has long since been shut down.

[BansheeOne]

Probably a bit of both. I suspect Helsing's AI is supposed to be the "second man", analyzing threats and determining appropriate countermeasures per a company blurb from June.

[Josh]

On 11/30/2023 at 6:02 AM, BansheeOne said:

The Bundestag's budget committee has authorized procurement of 15 Eurofighter EK which will replace Tornado ECR. These will be equipped with Saab's Arexis AI-supported sensor/jammer suite, and Northrop Grumman's AARGM. System integration is expected for 2028, NATO certification for 2030.

I still don’t understand why F-35s couldn’t be purchased for the SEAD mission, since they are buying some for nuclear sharing anyway.

[Ssnake]

Eurofighter might be slightly cheaper, and it's a European solution. This is a matter of retaining a certain domestic industrial capacity.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its also got more hard points. Besides,  there isnt a lot of point having a stealth fighter, if you the pylons all filled up with ARM in beast mode.

[Daan]

Beast mode is only for an expo. On real world missions SEAD and Wild Weasel aircraft like the F-4G, F-16CJ, E/A-18G and Tornado typically carry just two ARMs per aircraft. The other pylons are reserved for fuel tanks and various EW pods, CMs and AAMs for self-defense.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Daan

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont think the F35 can. There just isnt the internal space to carry two arms, AND at least a cursory self defence capacity with a couple of AAM's. Or at least there isnt on the B model. There might be a little more space in the A I guess.