Tanks That Never Rolled.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well I know nothing about this tank other than pictures ive seen in the past. But if you have a 30 ton weight with that much tank, Im kind of thinking this probably works far better as a tank destroyer than as a heavy tank. Or at worst, a light medium like a Sherman. If it was sloped like Panther they should be able to get away with that thickness armour, but it isnt. Its armour scheme looks more like British and French tanks from the 1930's.

 

It would have been very useful no doubt, but im not thinking it needed a 17 pounder to compete with it. An American 75mm would probably be adequate.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[JasonJ]

Of course the 17 pounder would have been more than enough to penetrate it. Likewise the 75mmL56 (Type 5 Tank Gun) would have have been more than adequate in dealng with M4s or CR4 even if not quite as powerful as the 17 pounder. Armor scheme is old fashion but still is welded.

[Nick Sumner]

This image is Photoshopped

In OTL the the German ‘Entwicklung’ or ‘E’ series of armoured fighting vehicle projects were initiated towards the end of WW2. The idea was to increase the production of AFVs by simplifying and rationalising the manufacturing process. Chassis were to be standardised. This is what I think the E25 StuG might have looked like if it had been built. The E25 was a chassis to replace vehicles in the 25+ tonne weight class which meant those that used Pzkfw III and IV as platforms.

[Nick Sumner]

These images are photoshopped

 

E100

 

[Nick Sumner]

These images are Photoshopped

These pictures are my interpretation of what a British A36 cruiser tank might have looked like and are speculative.

Little information has survived about the OTL A36. A document entitled ‘An Evolution of British Tanks’ prepared by the School of Tank Technology Department of Tank Design in February 1945 (a copy is held at the Bovington Tank Museum) describes the OTL design as being a heavier version of the A30 Challenger with increased immunity and stronger suspension. Like the Challenger the design was to mount a 17 pounder gun, its projected weight was 41.5 tons and the parent firm was Rolls-Royce.

The start point for this speculation is the A30 Avenger tank destroyer which was also a development of the A30 Challenger mounting a 17 pounder gun in a much lower turret. We can assume more robust suspension, improved protection, wider tracks and a heavier gearbox and transmission. Turret ring size is assumed to be the same as the A30 Avenger SP. An A34 Comet prototype was fitted with a sloped glacis plate but the modification was not introduced on production vehicles.

While A34 Comet was better than a Sherman, A36 might have been a Panther equivalent.

If anyone is bored in this time of mandatory lock downs and forced inactivity; check out the webpage for my alternate history novel Drake's Drum.

www.drakesdrum.co.uk

There are fact files, short stories, images and an extract you can read. Potentially hours of distraction. Guaranteed better than Netfliks!

[Nick Sumner]

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ok, you got me. What the hell is that?

Edited March 25, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[wendist]

This is supposed to be the A-34 prototype with the sloped armour. (so not photo-shopped)

 

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[RETAC21]

 

A shrunken Leopard 2? no, the Lince, a lightened Leo-2 look-alike that was part of a program to replace the AMX-30E that never got anywhere.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by RETAC21

[Stuart Galbraith]

This is supposed to be the A-34 prototype with the sloped armour. (so not photo-shopped)

 

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Thats really interesting, Ive never seen that one before. Almost Centurion lite.

[wendist]

Imagin this A30 Avenger prototype with a sloped front like the one above and compare it to the Cent below it. Not much difference is there?

 

 

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[Nick Sumner]

Ok, you got me. What the hell is that?

 

Stuart, the explanation is in reply #30. Its a speculative photoshop image of what a British A36 tank might have looked like.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes I see that now. Blame lack of sleep.

[DB]

This ties in neatly with the 40ton Centurion tank chat video - although the vehicle they have at Bovington is clearly just a demonstrator due in part to the driver's position and non-functional gun, it has a similar vibe to it.

[Nick Sumner]

Well, haven't posted a 'never rolled' tank in a while so here is one that got to the prototype stage, the Japanese Type 6 Chi Ri medium tank. As you can see, unlike the OTL version this one has a sloped glacis plate. This image is photoshopped. This is my opportunity for a shameless plug. 😉 The third book in my Drake's Drum series has now been released. Its called Drake's Drum: Currents of Fate and is available from Sea Lion Press.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Nick Sumner

[Nick Sumner]

Related to the Type 6 Chi-Ri tank was the Type 6 Ho-Ri SPG. A kind of Japanese Jagdtiger. The first image is photoshopped. The lower picture shows the design (with an AA gun on the rear decking.) As can be seen I have simplified the casemate outline and given it a sloped glacis. From the point of view of mass production, if the Japanese had actually built this vehicle it seems probable that they would have made it as quick and simple to build as possible.

In connection with the launch of the new book, there have been many updates to the Drake's Drum website.

Drake's Drum website

Hours of distraction!

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Nick Sumner

[futon]

Type 6 Chi Ri finally finally provides a glacis slope 

However, the Chi-Ri did receive a designation already, the Type 5. If a new tank based on the Type 5 Chi-Ri was to emerge it would likely use the next iroha numeral name. That could be "Ru" so Type 6 Chi-Ru. Although if the only difference between Chi-Ri and Chi-Ru is the glacis change, then maybe instead of getting a different iroha name, it would be just a "Kai" attachment for "improved" to make "Type 5 Chi-Ri Kai" or.. if taking the way the of the Type 97 Chi-Ha and Type 97 Chi-Ha Shinhoto (new turret), but with a new hull for the improved Chi-Ri then perhaps "Type 5 Chi-Ri Shinshatai". At any rate there was no prototype of a Type 6 Chi-Ri although there was the Type 5 Chi-Ri prototype that was completed and tested out by March 1945 but no production order was given to it. Even though Japanese were out of natural resources, that didn't stop planners in putting out unrealistic production orders for all sorts of things. But the Type 5 Chi Ri never even got production order. A production order went to the Type 4 Chi-To which was developed in parallel with the Chi-Ri. The Type 4 Chi-To (second prototype with long 75mm) was also completed and tested out by March 1945 (The first Chi-To prototype was with a long 57mm completed in May 1944). The Chi-To production order was for something like an unachievable 200 or so of them.

The Ho-Ri was also in development and never reached near completion so by the time it could be completed, as in 1946, a Type 6 designation is possible. Although its unknown if the one in actual development was the rear mounted superstructure design (like the Elephant) or the centered mounted superstructure design (like the blueprint in the post above.) Although since an actual blue print for the the centered mounted design exist whole there hasn't been an actual blueprint for the Elephant style design, then the centered mounted superstructure may have been it.

[Nick Sumner]

The Geschützwagen Tiger was based on an extended Tiger II chassis. Designed June 1942, the first prototype was still under construction at the end of the war. It was designed to mount the 17 cm Kanone 18, or the 21 cm Mörser 18. With the 17 cm gun it was to be known as Grille 17, with the 21 cm as Grille 21.

This is my opportunity for a shameless plug. 😉 To support the release of the third book in the Drake’s Drum tetralogy, the ‘Beta’ version of the Luftwaffe appendix has been added to the Drakes Drum website. Updated versions of the Heer, Kriegsmarine and Seeluftsteitkraft appendices have also been uploaded.

The top photograph is of the prototype abandoned at the end of the war with a Porsche turreted Tiger II to its left and a Jagdtiger behind. The second picture is from the world of Drake’s Drum and shows A disabled Geshűtzwagen Tiger with the 21 cm L31 gun captured by the Allies in Germany, 1948. This image is photoshopped.

[Nick Sumner]

In the Drake’s Drum alternate history, to meet the 20 pounder gun armed Centurions and 90mm gun armed M26 tanks the Allies are fielding on equal terms, the Germans will need an easily massed produced medium tank in the 50 tonne bracket with a powerful gun. They therefore speed up the service entry of  the E50 and use the shortcut of modifying (ie lightening) the Tiger II turret with its 88mm L/71 gun. The E50/E75 hull was almost identical in dimensions with the Tiger II. The tank is so similar to the Tiger it is  known as the Pzkfw E50 Tiger III.  This image is photoshopped.

 

 

[Nick Sumner]

Known in the Drake's Drum timeline as the 'Rector' this SP gun is based on an actual design. The updated version of the British Army appendix has been posted at the Drake's Drum website along with updated versions of the RN Appendix and the Beta version of the RAF appendix. The first image below is Photoshopped.

[Inhapi]

On 3/26/2020 at 9:20 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thats really interesting, Ive never seen that one before. Almost Centurion lite.

IIRC, this was a plate of rather thin spaced armour. As you can see it is bolted to a frame which in turn was IIRC welded to the original hull/armour. So while looking outwardly impressive, it is little more than a standard Comet with a thin sloping front plate added. Yuo can see at teh edges of the sloping front plate that it is just a thin add on and not the main armoured hull. In practice the extra protection from this plate turned out to be negligable.

[edit] : P.M. Knight, The Comet tank....     , p 210: "Altough it was too late to redesing the Comet with a sloping front glacis, an experiment was carried out in which an additional 1" thick IT 80 homogenious-machinable armour plate was bolted at 49° to three brackets welded onto the exisiting visor and glacis plates, in order to create an extra layer of protection."

tests showed the plate did indeed imoprove protection (it hardly could be otherwise ofc), but that just welding an extra plate onto the existing armour would give better protection for the same weight without covering up the exising drivers' door and Besa mount.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Inhapi

[Inhapi]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:18 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

At the risk of being indelicate, I guess there was no further use for it with the withdrawal of Australia from the land war in Europe? Its hard to see what the Japanese could field that would require it. The version with twin 25pounders might have been worth pursuing though.

The version with twin 25 pdrs wat nothing more than a test rig to test wether the hull/turret could withstand the recoil of a 17pdr gun, of which not even a single example was available in Australia for testing. It was never meant to be prodcued as an operational tank.

OTOH, if they had just made it with a singe 25pdr (and if the off road capability was good enough) I guess it would have been a great tank for jungle/island warfare against the Japanse.

[Inhapi]

http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars?task=view&id=1643

 

Not going to steal the picture, so I provide a link. French 1940  "Mausisches" tank: 145 tons, 90 mm gun in main turret + 47 mm  secondary. Only a wooden mock-up was in the works when France fell.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Inhapi

[Coldsteel]

16 hours ago, Inhapi said:

...
OTOH, if they had just made it with a singe 25pdr (and if the off road capability was good enough) I guess it would have been a great tank for jungle/island warfare against the Japanse.

It was made, which kind of takes it out of running for "tanks which never roller". There was some experimentation done with a lengthened 25pdr, but the ordnance that ended up in the production vehicles was a standard piece, with a different recoil system.

The pilot production AC3 tank.

The production line after the tank project ended, down the left side behind the 3-4 AC1s are a dozen or more partly assembled AC3 tanks, and a fairly complete one too near the centre behind the AC1 turrets. I think the M3 medium tanks are there because quite a few of them arrived from the US in an incomplete or unfinished state, lacking things like the commander's cupola, for which a replacement set of hatches had to be made locally and it looks like that's what these ones might be being fitted with.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Speaking of M3's, it reminded me of this.