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8 hours ago, nitflegal said:

While I enjoy the dueling of the statistics I frankly happy to see the data emerge that for all the hysteria Covid-19 is just a dangerous virus.  Prior infection does provide significant immunity and with the new variant it appears that it is at least as protective as the vaccine which is designed to mimic an infection and create those same antibodies.  That's how this sh*t works and the truly infuriating thing is how many scientists and physicians who should have (and I'd bet real money actually did) known better behaved as if they didn't.  Including our employees that run the agencies each of our country has to keep us safe and provide sound medical guidance.  This is virology 101 and yet the experts who have been trained in this stuff pretended this situation was unique and altered all of our lives based on that.  This isn't me trying to be funny or hyperbolic; I cannot describe how crushed I am that the scientific community I believed in has such politicized feet of clay.  

Inside every scientist and clinician is a human being, with all the pros and cons that come with the genome.

And as we have seen, inside every human being is a potential Nazi. Mom pants are the new Hugo Boss.

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10 hours ago, DKTanker said:

Meanwhile Dr. John Campbell has this bit of information recently released through a freedom of information request.

 

He has a like to a website in the notes of the above video, but I didn't see a particular reference for the data he talked about.

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1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

He has a like to a website in the notes of the above video, but I didn't see a particular reference for the data he talked about.

Watch on youtube and check under the channel section at click see more. It lists all the sites he gets his information from.

I regularly watch the channel he seems the only one to present all data good or bad and tries to be as unbias as he can.

Although he has does go on about asperating when giving injections. 

Edited by Wobbly Head
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1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

He has a like to a website in the notes of the above video, but I didn't see a particular reference for the data he talked about.

On the covid deaths without other underlying causes:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsfromcovid19withnootherunderlyingcauses?s=09

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2 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Inside every scientist and clinician is a human being, with all the pros and cons that come with the genome.

And as we have seen, inside every human being is a potential Nazi. Mom pants are the new Hugo Boss.

All true but I really believed that we had decent guardrails and skepticism that would prevent or at least slow corruption.  Political and societal pressure had the medical sciences lose their integrity in weeks.  It also opens up the terrible question of how much has this been happening below the waves and we (I) were blind to it?  I'm kind of glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning because I have no idea how bad the backlash is going to be to the sciences in general and my niche in particular.  For society to accept that there are experts who will carefully weigh the data based on experience and education and thus trust that if the FDA says something is safe it is they have to trust that at worst it is flawed people doing their best to protect them.  How many people still have that trust?  

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32 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

All true but I really believed that we had decent guardrails and skepticism that would prevent or at least slow corruption.  Political and societal pressure had the medical sciences lose their integrity in weeks.  It also opens up the terrible question of how much has this been happening below the waves and we (I) were blind to it?  I'm kind of glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning because I have no idea how bad the backlash is going to be to the sciences in general and my niche in particular.  For society to accept that there are experts who will carefully weigh the data based on experience and education and thus trust that if the FDA says something is safe it is they have to trust that at worst it is flawed people doing their best to protect them.  How many people still have that trust?  

Science has always been like that, remember the atomic bomb wasn't built because a bunch of crazy people had a hunch, but because concerned scientist thought the Nazis could have it first (and yet, no one was concerned about a Japanese atomic bomb). Previously, there was Tesla's death ray or the use of poison gas in WW1 by patriotic German scientists.

And would you rather have a "bad" FDA or no FDA (in which case, Radithor would the rage!)

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50 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

All true but I really believed that we had decent guardrails and skepticism that would prevent or at least slow corruption.  Political and societal pressure had the medical sciences lose their integrity in weeks.  It also opens up the terrible question of how much has this been happening below the waves and we (I) were blind to it?  I'm kind of glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning because I have no idea how bad the backlash is going to be to the sciences in general and my niche in particular.  For society to accept that there are experts who will carefully weigh the data based on experience and education and thus trust that if the FDA says something is safe it is they have to trust that at worst it is flawed people doing their best to protect them.  How many people still have that trust?  

When politicos became aware of Environmentalism being a useful, even "science-based" ideology, too many scientists decided that wealth was more important than intellectual honesty. There was the acid rain scare, the population bomb scare, the "next glaciation" scare, the ozone layer scare, the nuclear power scare, the global warming scare...

Then came the "plandemic", and there are concentration camps in Australia, cases of forced vaccination, and even Germany will bring to the Bundestag a law forcing compulsory vaccination.

Where are the real scientists? Hounded out of mass media, and social media.

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..............men infected with the coronavirus showed signs of a short-term decline in fertility, according to the research, which was led by an epidemiologist at Boston University and published in the peer-reviewed American Journal of Epidemiology. It was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

 

 

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7 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Science has always been like that, remember the atomic bomb wasn't built because a bunch of crazy people had a hunch, but because concerned scientist thought the Nazis could have it first (and yet, no one was concerned about a Japanese atomic bomb). Previously, there was Tesla's death ray or the use of poison gas in WW1 by patriotic German scientists.

And would you rather have a "bad" FDA or no FDA (in which case, Radithor would the rage!)

That's not at all what he's talking about.  He isn't talking about scientists using science to build weapons, he's talking about scientists using their position of expertise to convince you that 2+2=5.  And, if you question their conclusion, you are anti-science.  They're selling out their credibility to appease their politics.  Meanwhile, Galileo Galilei is turning over in his grave.

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40 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

That's not at all what he's talking about.  He isn't talking about scientists using science to build weapons, he's talking about scientists using their position of expertise to convince you that 2+2=5.  And, if you question their conclusion, you are anti-science.  They're selling out their credibility to appease their politics.  Meanwhile, Galileo Galilei is turning over in his grave.

I don't mind at all agreeing with you but I hate like hell agreeing with you on your point.  But I have to because it is accurate as well as painful.  We failed our societies.  And I say we because I haven't been a beacon of courage in this.  I could have ratted out my NDA's and betrayed my client's confidence and gone to somebody.  It wouldn't have done anything but still I could have done it.  If you want to see unbridled rage at what my group has done just ask me about kids in general and mine in particular.  The effects of our bullshit driven cowardly approach to risk/benefit in the pandemic will linger for years if not decades and could extend into the next generation if we don't get our sh*t together.  My eldest is a beautiful vibrant 20 year old with a combination of high IQ (higher than mine and on level with my wife) and mild autism.  Minimal impacts on her life but she spent her teen years building her social skills and a network of friends.  Than Covid hit and the friends are gone, she is lonely as hell, and has socially regressed to as bad as ever.  The informal network of similar parents here are all in the same boat.  My youngest and a bunch of her friends were going to the mall and talked freely.  2 years ago it was normal kid stuff.  I spent half an hour trying to be impassive as every one talked about their anti-depressants (every single one of the 7) and laughing about their failed suicide attempts.  I suspect there is an entire generation of kids who will never, ever forget or forgive what we did to them.  And they will be dealing with the repercussions to their lives for as long as they live.  

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9 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

And I say we because I haven't been a beacon of courage in this.  I could have ratted out my NDA's and betrayed my client's confidence and gone to somebody. 

In my humble opinion, I think you should not sweat over this - a hero is a hero because he did heroic deeds that were above and behind the call of duty. Nobody would have criticized him if he "only" discharged his duty. I think you had to walk a tight rope between your contractual duties as signatory of NDAs and your calling as a medical scientist, and you did that well. No lies, only the strictly needed reminding of your profession when some less knowledgeable poster was toeing the party line, and the utmost politeness.

I mean, by telling some lies, like some bureaucrats disguised as scientists, you could have easily tipped the tone of this same thread, and you did not.

I never had any doubt that you were not disclosing all that you know, and I could not find any fault. I think the first duty of a father is with his family.

Among the first Christians, the act of going willingly in search of martyrdom as a easy way to go to Heaven was grounds for immediate excommunication, because it constituted an act of tempting God, to force Him to give the grace of martyrdom, and one should not try to force God to do something. 

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1 hour ago, nitflegal said:

I don't mind at all agreeing with you but I hate like hell agreeing with you on your point.  But I have to because it is accurate as well as painful.  We failed our societies.

I think the issue is that bean counters and bureaucrats who pose as scientists because they have science degrees but went into administrative jobs are selling everyone else's credibility. When folks like Dr Malone stand up and oppose that at great personal cost, they re-fund some of that credibility, but only for those who act with the integrity to NOT just go with the herd. 

At some point Facui's going to have to go and probably be sued into beggerdom for the things he's done. 
 

Edited by rmgill
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Scientists felt the power to influence and control the society, to be near highest politicians and journalists, being called to talk on radio, TV.   Their friends asked them their opinion like they never did before...

That was probably one of the zeniths of their careers. Unfortunately the social reward implied that more dire the situation more power, influence and time on stage they would get.

 

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16 hours ago, nitflegal said:

All true but I really believed that we had decent guardrails and skepticism that would prevent or at least slow corruption.  Political and societal pressure had the medical sciences lose their integrity in weeks.  It also opens up the terrible question of how much has this been happening below the waves and we (I) were blind to it?  I'm kind of glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning because I have no idea how bad the backlash is going to be to the sciences in general and my niche in particular.  For society to accept that there are experts who will carefully weigh the data based on experience and education and thus trust that if the FDA says something is safe it is they have to trust that at worst it is flawed people doing their best to protect them.  How many people still have that trust?  

Science has become political and is just a weapon in the left´s war for total domination.

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10 hours ago, DKTanker said:

That's not at all what he's talking about.  He isn't talking about scientists using science to build weapons, he's talking about scientists using their position of expertise to convince you that 2+2=5.  And, if you question their conclusion, you are anti-science.  They're selling out their credibility to appease their politics.  Meanwhile, Galileo Galilei is turning over in his grave.

And that has happened since the Greeks were around, this is nothing new. It's not scientist selling their credibility but politicians leveraging the scientists for their own means. 

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3 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

And that has happened since the Greeks were around, this is nothing new. It's not scientist selling their credibility but politicians leveraging the scientists for their own means. 

I want to agree with this but I can't.  Yes, the politicians levered it but the scientists went along.  We went along by being quiet, many enthusiastically went public to say things that were unsupported at best, and carefully tailored their research to what was in vogue for publishing purposes.  I take some comfort that we've done better than say the FBI where we here about bad apples and dedicated career folks yet they've absolutely locked down behind the organization (seriously, can we name one, just one, impactful whistleblower?) that is demonstrably corrupt.  And some of us have nibbled around the edges by sharing information in public, forums, etc and a very few have put themselves on the line and gone on Rogan and other avenues to put counter-points out there.  However, saying the scientific community bears no responsibility because of our leaders is the same argument meant to exonerate the Germans before 1945.  It didn't hold water then and it does not now.  Every scientist who put a "cloth masks work" meme on Facebook or clicked like/share on some NEA horseshit post explaining why shutting schools down was for the kids helped perpetuate the crapfest we are in today.  We need to own it and see what we can do to minimize the chances of this happening again.

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9 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Scientists felt the power to influence and control the society, to be near highest politicians and journalists, being called to talk on radio, TV.   Their friends asked them their opinion like they never did before...

That was probably one of the zeniths of their careers. Unfortunately the social reward implied that more dire the situation more power, influence and time on stage they would get.

 

I think that's a huge part of it, maybe the primary one save fear of retribution.  Everyone wants to be admired and respected by the largest group possible and mouthing the state approved lies suddenly was the ticket to making that happen.  I hope it was worth it when people sneer at them in the street for their part 5 years from now.

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There seems to have been a lot of really nasty medical related stuff through the years that somehow manage to reach completion before being let made known to the public but still maintained at rather low key basic knowlege both before and after the horrific Unit 731. Such cases by the US side listed in the wiki about it has examples of using prisoners, children in a major city, people used in the Philippines, Guatemala.. for these research programs to be carried out, the same sort of non-disclosing cooporation by those involved would surely be in play. And then there's the organ harvesting. I can't say if it still goes on much but with what sounds like a lot of organs have been harvested by them, 10s or perhaps even 100s of thousands of organs, surely not all of these are used in just China but have become available and used in many other countries, Western or not. But perhaps that back tracking has been so blurred so that it cannot be known whether or not an organ being transplanted was that from the body of a Falun Gong Chinese person. If so, there's quite some amount of blind eye turning at various steps. One other thing that comes to mind sometimes, partly invoked by the Wuhan lab is that China lacks the regulation environment that some researchers find attractive. There was US connection to the Wuhan lab up until 2016 or something IIRC. I feel it could be assumed that there are other difficult to do research programs by westerner individuals if in their home countries so doing that work in China and are enabled by non-discloing cooperation from there home country so that they can do that work in China and bring back the fruits of otherwise illegal work. I guess it could still be said that the kind of politicization of science is a much larger scale but still the nature of unethical research is a different beast.  

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We are not talking about major ethical infractions only here, but of major ethical infractions leveraged in order to upset the social order of a substantial part of the world.

Edited by sunday
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One of the new CDC reports analyzed data from hundreds of thousands of emergency room visits, urgent care visits and hospitalizations between August 2021 and Jan. 5, 2022. It showed that a third dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna shots reduces the chance of hospitalization by 90 percent compared to unvaccinated people, and reduces the chance of a trip to the emergency room by 82 percent. The data covered a period that includes three weeks when omicron was the predominant variant.

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9 hours ago, seahawk said:

Science has become political and is just a weapon in the left´s war for total domination.

Unless it conflicts with the Narrative. Then it's Disinformation. This is why there's no difference between boys and girls despite the clear evidence in genetics, medicine, sports performance, and just basic physiology, for example. 

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3 minutes ago, JWB said:

One of the new CDC reports analyzed data from hundreds of thousands of emergency room visits, urgent care visits and hospitalizations between August 2021 and Jan. 5, 2022. It showed that a third dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna shots reduces the chance of hospitalization by 90 percent compared to unvaccinated people, and reduces the chance of a trip to the emergency room by 82 percent. The data covered a period that includes three weeks when omicron was the predominant variant.

Ok. Now on the other side of the scale. What are the known side effects and what are the rates of those side effects? 

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4 hours ago, nitflegal said:

  I hope it was worth it when people sneer at them in the street for their part 5 years from now.

Sneer? No. If it turns out that the side effects are as large as or larger than what we seem to be seeing with recent study papers, people who pushed this at positions of authority need to be horse whipped in the streets, stripped of their credentials, sued, fined and thrown into prison for crimes. They can go be ditch diggers when their sentences are done. You don't force people into drug testing with unknown side effects. Which is exactly what happened. The odds are, given how NO-ONE in charge of the Tuskegee experiments were every properly punished let alone held remotely accountable, noone will see an ounce of punishment. 

Edited by rmgill
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