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9 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

WTF are you talking about, now it's about radar altimeters?!

I'm giving you a fucking example of a relative value vs an absolute value in a completely different context for clarity. Follow the bouncing ball why don't ya?

I guess you have to understand why Radar altimeters and barometric Pressure based altimeters are important nuanced measurement systems, but that difference is beyond your ken, so sorry I even used that example. 

EXCESS deaths above WHAT? The previous year? The past 5 years average? The past 10 years average? A randomly chosen baseline year? 
It's a relative term. If you put the baseline year 40 years ago the number would look HUUGE! What's the reference year or years for the mean? If it was 10 years before and given there was a population addition of 11 Million people to the EU over 2010 to 2020. If your base line is from 2010, then your flu related deaths are going to look huge. 


Death RATE would be more relevant because that's an absolute value of X per 100,000 which maps out for if the previous 10 years population was 4 million or 4.5 Million because you absorbed half a million Syrian refugees or not.  
 

Edited by rmgill
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https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/01/12/why-did-scientists-suppress-the-lab-leak-theory/

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Now we know what those leading scientists really thought. Emails exchanged between them after a conference call on 1 February 2020, and only now forced into the public domain by Republicans in the US Congress, show that they not only thought the virus might have leaked from a lab, but they also went much further in private. They thought the genome sequence of the new virus showed a strong likelihood of having been deliberately manipulated or accidentally mutated in the lab. Yet later they drafted an article for a scientific journal arguing that the suggestion not just of a manipulated virus, but even of an accidental spill, could be confidently dismissed and was a crackpot conspiracy theory.

 

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In August 2020 Kristian Andersen and Robert Garry were among the lead investigators to receive $8.9million to study emerging infectious diseases, in a grant from Anthony Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, part of Francis Collins’s National Institutes of Health.

 

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6 hours ago, rmgill said:

Eric Weinstein made a nice point the other day. 

The only tool that should have been available to the political figures in what should be a free society is Persuasion. They should not have deplatforming, ridicule from their positions of power, censorship, stripping people of professional certifications, firing from their jobs, lying and other things they've been doing to frame their response to COVID to get everyone to vaccinate. 

That they HAVE used all of those other techniques and can't rely upon persuasion is indicative of a problem. 

The fact that a bunch of folks all involved in various key aspects of significant advances in medicine have all been getting silenced in this is representative of a larger problem. 

Well said!

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28 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Well said!

Rmgill is vaccinated (at least according to him). I would be surprised if anybody on this forum is not vaccinated. Vaccination mandates have been A Thing for about 100 plus years in the US (required by states not federal government) and none of the previous vaccines were ever subjected to the rigor re possible side effects than the current vaccines have been. 

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9 hours ago, rmgill said:

How many studies do you want pointing to various co-morbidities and negative outcomes with COVID? Ore are you going to go with the outliers conflated as the mean? 

I swear, it seems like you're still stuck in April of 2020 in the foaming at the mouth panic mode. 

Here's a start for your reading. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8677356/

A total of 454 patients were included of this study. 78 (17.18%) patients death due to COVID-19, consisting of 52 (66.67%) male and 26 (33.33%) female. Range of ages between 18 and 85 years. The highest mortality rate occurred in the age group ≥60 years (35; 51.47%), followed by the age group of 45–59 years (33; 48.53%), and the age group of <45 years (10; 12%). The prevalent comorbidity was hypertension (42.31%), cardiovascular disease (30.77%), diabetes (28.21%), chronic kidney disease (23.08%), malignancy (15.38%), obesity (15.38%), chronic liver disease (7.69%), chronic respiratory disease (6.41%), immune related disease (3.85%), and non-traumatic cerebral infarction (3.85%). 41 (52.56%) patients reported having two or more comorbidities, and 37 (47.44%) only has one comorbidity. Elevated neutrophil-to-lymphocyte ratio (NLR) ≥3.13 was seen in the majority of patients (68; 87.18%). The mean value of NLR was 20.94.

This still doesn't prove that only people immune compromised die from Covid, which was you assertion (see below) and in fact has nothing to do with it.

17 hours ago, rmgill said:

 If you're immune compromised it makes sense to take extra precautions. If you're not, and you're still hiding at home and starting at every report about COVID, you're a fool. 
 

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5 hours ago, Angrybk said:

... none of the previous vaccines were ever subjected to the rigor re possible side effects than the current vaccines have been. 

Simply false. Before previous vaccines were required, we had much longer testing periods with studies and trials to identify possible long-term side effects. We waived all those trials for this vaccine and went right to mandates in less than 18 months.

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6 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Rmgill is vaccinated (at least according to him). I would be surprised if anybody on this forum is not vaccinated. Vaccination mandates have been A Thing for about 100 plus years in the US (required by states not federal government) and none of the previous vaccines were ever subjected to the rigor re possible side effects than the current vaccines have been. 

Prior to this vaccine the shortest testing period was 4 years and 10 months (and that in itself was an anomaly) .  In the USA, it was about 2 years longer for the EU.  What was unique about this situation is that we pushed several secondary and a lot of tertiary studies into the post EUA phase to accelerate time-to-human.  Additionally, something that was unique is that we relied on the data from smaller discovery studies on the vaccine platform that had been done as part of the normal prolonged discovery phase process in place of running them with this optimized vaccine utilizing those generic mRNA platforms.  Many of the studies that would have been required to be submitted for a normal regulatory approval are still in progress with data analysis expected between 2023 and 2027.  

I have seen nothing that suggests that the FDA, EU FDA, etc didn't apply a high level of scrutiny to the vaccine.  However, they had significantly less data than they would normally have and had to extrapolate from previous studies on similar or framework compounds in a way they would not have done before.  Fair enough, pandemic.  What I have seen that is very odd is that they appear to be collecting far more limited data on side effects than I have seen with previous drug releases of any kind.  It is possible that they are collecting it and keeping the data classified/restricted but they are certainly releasing far less adverse event data than we have seen in the past for anything else.

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The altimeter analogy is weird and for most phases of flight hopelessly inaccurate.

Radar altimeters are not used to keep commercial aircraft out of mountains, nor is that the primary purpose of an altimeter anyway. It's primarily for maintaining safe vertical separation to avoid mid-air collisions and is measured from a baseline "corrected" Sea level pressure value given by the ATC responsible for the FR in which the aircraft is flying. If you understand how it works, you'd understand that this isn't any sort of absolute value, but a relative one with every single part of it made up, because the altitude versus pressure profile is based on a model atmosphere, not reality.

Edited by DB
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45 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

Prior to this vaccine the shortest testing period was 4 years and 10 months (and that in itself was an anomaly) .  In the USA, it was about 2 years longer for the EU.  What was unique about this situation is that we pushed several secondary and a lot of tertiary studies into the post EUA phase to accelerate time-to-human.  Additionally, something that was unique is that we relied on the data from smaller discovery studies on the vaccine platform that had been done as part of the normal prolonged discovery phase process in place of running them with this optimized vaccine utilizing those generic mRNA platforms.  Many of the studies that would have been required to be submitted for a normal regulatory approval are still in progress with data analysis expected between 2023 and 2027.  

I have seen nothing that suggests that the FDA, EU FDA, etc didn't apply a high level of scrutiny to the vaccine.  However, they had significantly less data than they would normally have and had to extrapolate from previous studies on similar or framework compounds in a way they would not have done before.  Fair enough, pandemic.  What I have seen that is very odd is that they appear to be collecting far more limited data on side effects than I have seen with previous drug releases of any kind.  It is possible that they are collecting it and keeping the data classified/restricted but they are certainly releasing far less adverse event data than we have seen in the past for anything else.

I don't know about FDA but EMA seems to have a lot of data out:

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/vaccines-covid-19/safety-covid-19-vaccines

And they even trumpet how transparent they are: 

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/transparency-exceptional-measures-covid-19-medicines

🙄

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6 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

This still doesn't prove that only people immune compromised die from Covid, which was you assertion (see below) and in fact has nothing to do with it.

MY assertion was that it's MOSTLY people who have co-morbidities. Immune compromised folks may also have issues with COVID. Like they do with EVERY other disease floating around out there. One of the things with HIV infected early on was the strange fungal infections they were showing up with. 

Folks with Co-morbidities which I ALSO note are the folks who tend to die from COVID Along with the CO-Morbidities. 

You understand what CO means in Co-morbidity? 

co-

 prefix

Definition of co- (Entry 5 of 5)

1: with : together : joint : jointlycoexistcoheir


This means that they're dying from multiple causes. COVID is just one of multiple issues. When the data points to an average of  co-morbidities, I think it could be argued that they're probably going to die of more than just COVID even without COVID. Yes. Try to protect them but you know what, the Heart Disease, Smoking, obesity and other factors are really the issue long term. Not paying attention to those things in the larger front of Selling Vaccines as you and others want to do is just sily. 

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8 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Rmgill is vaccinated (at least according to him). I would be surprised if anybody on this forum is not vaccinated. Vaccination mandates have been A Thing for about 100 plus years in the US (required by states not federal government) and none of the previous vaccines were ever subjected to the rigor re possible side effects than the current vaccines have been. 

None of that boot straps the mandates. 

Vaccine Mandates have been thing at lower levels and usually to attend public schools. 
They were also with vaccines that were tested over a longer period of time than <1 year.

They were also not a requirement to participate in society as a rule LET ALONE keep a job at all.

They were also not mandated at the federal level. 

 

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1 hour ago, DB said:

The altimeter analogy is weird and for most phases of flight hopelessly inaccurate.

Radar altimeters are not used to keep commercial aircraft out of mountains, nor is that the primary purpose of an altimeter anyway. It's primarily for maintaining safe vertical separation to avoid mid-air collisions and is measured from a baseline "corrected" Sea level pressure value given by the ATC responsible for the FR in which the aircraft is flying. If you understand how it works, you'd understand that this isn't any sort of absolute value, but a relative one with every single part of it made up, because the altitude versus pressure profile is based on a model atmosphere, not reality.


Sort of. Depends on the phase of flight. QNE, QNH or QFE. Standard pressure, local altimeter, and field elevation. All three are key and again, for my analogy, the reference point is critical. More so with flying over terrain or through weather, the static pressure and the barometric pressure where you're at will change. Which is again, why airplanes sometimes bump into terrain. 

The point is the variability and the agreed upon reference point is a relative point at all times which may not actually tell you the valid distance between you and litho-braking (or breaking as the case may be). 

 

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15 hours ago, rmgill said:

Eric Weinstein made a nice point the other day. 

The only tool that should have been available to the political figures in what should be a free society is Persuasion. They should not have deplatforming, ridicule from their positions of power, censorship, stripping people of professional certifications, firing from their jobs, lying and other things they've been doing to frame their response to COVID to get everyone to vaccinate. 

That they HAVE used all of those other techniques and can't rely upon persuasion is indicative of a problem. 

The fact that a bunch of folks all involved in various key aspects of significant advances in medicine have all been getting silenced in this is representative of a larger problem. 

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I think we could agree in this definition of excess mortality

Quote

An unusual mortality increase during a specific period, in a given population, is often referred to as an excess mortality. Eurostat’s excess mortality indicator is expressed as a percentage of additional deaths in a month compared to a baseline period. In 2020, the baseline is given by average monthly deaths in the period 2016-2019. The higher the value, the more additional deaths have occurred compared to the baseline. A negative value means that fewer deaths occurred in a particular month compared with the baseline period.

The excess mortality indicator can draw attention to the magnitude of the crisis by providing a comprehensive comparison of additional deaths amongst the European countries and allowing for further analysis of its causes. The number of deaths from all causes observed during this pandemic, thus, can be compared with the expected number of deaths during a certain period in the past.

The reasons for an excess mortality may vary according to different phenomena, the current being linked to the COVID-19 pandemic. Excess mortality is a more comprehensive measure of the total impact of the pandemic on deaths than the confirmed COVID-19 death count alone. In addition to confirmed deaths, excess mortality captures COVID-19 deaths that were not correctly diagnosed and reported, as well as deaths from other causes that can be attributed to the overall crisis condition. It also accounts for the partial absence of deaths from other causes like accidents that did not occur due, e.g., to the limitations in commuting or travel during the lockdown periods.

 

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23 minutes ago, rmgill said:

MY assertion was that it's MOSTLY people who have co-morbidities.

So now it's not all, but some, and how many people is that? previously people without comorbidities were SAFE and were IDIOTS to be afraid of Covid.

Not anymore in Ryanworld, some of them NOW need to be worried about Covid, but how many and how do you draw the line? do tell us.

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11 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

So now it's not all, but some, and how many people is that? previously people without comorbidities were SAFE and were IDIOTS to be afraid of Covid.

I'm sorry, you need me to define what the risk groups are every time we send missive back and forth over the inter-tubes? Seriously? You need a re-definition of terms EVERY Bloody post? 

There are clear risk groups established in the mortality data for COVID. We've discussed this here. Myself and many other posters have provided substantially data backed papers and citations of all of this. 

5 year old kids aren't in that group. 15 year old kids aren't in that group.  20 year olds aren't in that group. 30 year olds aren't in that group. It's kind of a break point at 45 years old and older (I forget precisely where but it's a fuzzy demarkation anyhow), but usually related and tied to your overall health and other things going on. Co-morbidities are a big factor. Guess what, immune disorders IS a co-morbidity. So is being a fat body. 

I guess what's going on here is that the information/propaganda campaign is working on folks like you and you're just excluding everything from your frontal cortex and you're just FUD mongering based on what you were told this week. Just stop. Fear is the mind killer. 
 

Edited by rmgill
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It is not as if we never had the healthy and young flu victim. In fact we have them every year.

Strangely the response by the government is very different and the "virus" seems to be lab designed and they had some new untested vaccines ready just by pure luck. Sure.

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9 minutes ago, rmgill said:

I'm sorry, you need me to define what the risk groups are every time we send missive back and forth over the inter-tubes? Seriously? You need a re-definition of terms EVERY Bloody post? 

There are clear risk groups established in the mortality data for COVID. We've discussed this here. Myself and many other posters have provided substantially data backed papers and citations of all of this. 

5 year old kids aren't in that group. 15 year old kids aren't in that group.  20 year olds aren't in that group. 30 year olds aren't in that group. It's kind of a break point at 45 years old and older (I forget precisely where but it's a fuzzy demarkation anyhow), but usually related and tied to your overall health and other things going on. Co-morbidities are a big factor. Guess what, immune disorders IS a co-morbidity. So is being a fat body. 

I guess what's going on here is that the information/propaganda campaign is working on folks like you and you're just excluding everything from your frontal cortex and you're just FUD mongering based on what you were told this week. Just stop. Fear is the mind killer. 
 

No, what is going on here is that you are trying to move the goal post again, as is your usual method, rather than recognise that you were wrong, which really is not that hard, and will open yuor mind to learn new things.

You have been called out for intelectual dishonesty previously, and yet you try to do the same thing time and again in a vain effort to "win" an internet debate, but it's just pathetic, am sorry to say. 

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