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...The nice result of "solidarity" .... you pay taxes whole life and then they mean zero if you are above certain age.

 

Like it or not, that exists in every medical emergency.

 

And every medical situation.

People find it much easier to complain about "bad" decisions made by the very people they endowed with making those decisions, than to live with the consequences of having made those decisions for themselves.

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https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856

 

Israeli M.D. Gai Peleg, who is currently working to save lives in Parma, Italy, told Channel 12 that things are only getting worse as the number of patients keeps growing.

 

As his department receives coronavirus patients who are terminally ill, the focus is to allow patients to meet loved ones and communicate with them during their last moments despite the quarantine regulations. Other reports claim that, as the number of dead increases, some families find themselves unable to secure a proper burial for their loved ones.

 

Peleg said that, from what he sees and hears in the hospital, the instructions are not to offer access to artificial respiratory machines to patients over 60, as such machines are limited in number.

 

 

Gee, that's nice.

Not sure what the issue is. If said machines are in limited supply you give the machine to the patient with the best chance of survival. No different than the mass casualty training I got back as a medic in the Army (limited resources go to patients with best chance of survival).

 

I feel for these docs. That's a terrible situation to be put in. Thankfully I never was. It's still the right decision, though. Highlights the importance of controlling the spread of the virus so the system isn't overwhelmed and it has to come to this.

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We got a local Darwin Award finalist.

 

 

Phoenix man dies, wife in critical condition after self-medicating to treat coronavirus

 

 

PHOENIX (3TV/CBS 5) -- Banner Health officials are warning the general public after a man died and his wife was hospitalized in critical condition from self-medicating to treat coronavirus.

 

According to a press release from Banner Health, the product that the couple used was chloroquine, which is a malaria medication that they recommend to not be ingested or used to treat or prevent COVID-19.

 

The man and his wife, both in their 60s, became sick within 30 minutes of ingesting chloroquine phosophate, and experienced immediate effects requiring hospitalization. Chloroquine phosphate, is an additive commonly used at aquariums to clean fish tanks.

 

https://www.azfamily.com/news/continuing_coverage/coronavirus_coverage/phoenix-man-dies-wife-in-critical-condition-after-self-medicating/article_fac3d7cc-6d48-11ea-9092-8b65922dc7c0.html

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Let’s not give Mnuchin a secret slush fund or even a regular slush fund.

https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1241800648355647488

 

Amash, enough said. His statement is straight from the Dems who always complain about the other guy doing exactly what they are.

 

How is that statement different from any of his previous history?

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Gee, that's nice.

The nice result of "solidarity" .... you pay taxes whole life and then they mean zero if you are above certain age.

Is this... death panels?

 

What's your counter-proposal, to procure and maintain respirators and ICUs on a 1:1 ratio for the whole population?

 

 

If FEMA, CDC and DHS does their job right, you won't have to. Certainly more than we have now, though, available through the strategic national stockpile.

Edited by Burncycle360
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So anybody got any idea why Italy is being so heavily affected? I mean, a couple of months ago, Greece hosted Prime Minister Xi and Mrs. Prime Minister Xi with Mr & Mrs Greek Prime Minister. There stories all about the Chinese market for Greek products AND increasing Chinese tourism to Greece. Along with that, we got the tens of thousands of refugees on the Greek frontier...yet we don't have such a HUGE outbreak and loss of life as in Italy (proportionally speaking, of course Greece has maybe one sixth the population of Italy);

 

There is (was?) a lot of Chinese businesses working in the luxury goods industry in Lombardy, with close ties to the Wuhan area.

 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany

 

Something I heard on one of my local talk stations--on top of the heavy Chinese business influence the show also made mention of 'large/huge' numbers of Chinese 'illegally' in Italy and how that probably has a major impact on the spread of the illness. True or not, I don't know for sure.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

 

Our youth is using this as an example of the failure of the current system, and an excuse to double down on the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. They want NHS more than ever.

 

They don't see us as being on the right track generally, but needing reform -- instead they believe the premise itself is flawed and want to flip the board entirely, burn it to the waterline and start over.

 

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The CDC was very severely cut. Its possible that the lack of tests may just be a net result of the lack of resources.

No, It wasn't. I live near their campus. I know folks who work there, including my neighbor. They have many programs like working on smoking and other things not strictly disease related at all. Their complex has grown dramatically in the past 30 years. I can remember when there were houses on Michael Street and not that walled campus.

 

Main Campus Next to Emory. I was at Emory in the 90s and my family worked there (I worked there for a time too).

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7985058,-84.3284686,367m/data=!3m1!1e3

They also have a campus over in Chamblee.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8823827,-84.2950925,767m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

cdcbud1.png?itok=MsIc74tl​

 

Very Severely Cut? No. Not really.

 

Yes, ive withdrawn that above, my apologies for trusting the TV media too strongly. It was apparently a pending cut, and it has not happened.

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So anybody got any idea why Italy is being so heavily affected? I mean, a couple of months ago, Greece hosted Prime Minister Xi and Mrs. Prime Minister Xi with Mr & Mrs Greek Prime Minister. There stories all about the Chinese market for Greek products AND increasing Chinese tourism to Greece. Along with that, we got the tens of thousands of refugees on the Greek frontier...yet we don't have such a HUGE outbreak and loss of life as in Italy (proportionally speaking, of course Greece has maybe one sixth the population of Italy);

 

There is (was?) a lot of Chinese businesses working in the luxury goods industry in Lombardy, with close ties to the Wuhan area.

 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/16/the-chinese-workers-who-assemble-designer-bags-in-tuscany

 

Something I heard on one of my local talk stations--on top of the heavy Chinese business influence the show also made mention of 'large/huge' numbers of Chinese 'illegally' in Italy and how that probably has a major impact on the spread of the illness. True or not, I don't know for sure.

 

Cant speak for illegals, ive read no evidence of that, but there is a big Chinese community in Northern Italy that is propping up the stone cutting industry.

https://www.dw.com/en/chinese-migration-brings-social-change-to-italys-alps/a-42456247

 

Could that be a source of transmission as he brings people in? Maybe. It may just be one of those occasions when people are desperately looking for links and making them were there arent any. I doubt illegals spread this, it seems far more likely it was someone on holiday, or the first tranche ending up in the Hospitals would have been all chinese.

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IMO

( I haven´t watched your videos. But generally EU countries taking in / letting in / inviting / tolerating illegal entry 2. and 3. world overpopulation is idiotic. So 10 to 20 % of each EU countries population are 2. and 3. world "immigrants" - and who have not paid a dime into health systen etc. and need all to cared for. )

The stone industry would have managed otherwise. Having a cheap mass of potential labor is nice, like having slaves.

Edited by Martin M
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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

There is nothing stopping you to pay as much money as you want/can to get better treatment in European healthcare systems.

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Gee, that's nice.

The nice result of "solidarity" .... you pay taxes whole life and then they mean zero if you are above certain age.

Is this... death panels?

 

What's your counter-proposal, to procure and maintain respirators and ICUs on a 1:1 ratio for the whole population?

If FEMA, CDC and DHS does their job right, you won't have to.

 

Ah, but you go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had. And often enough you have to live with the consequences of decisions that were made very early on, usually under conditions of incomplete situational awareness. Like the still debated question whether restrictions to public life are "necessary" or worse in their consequences than what good they do.

 

Making this yet another pointless debate about "socialist healthcare" is something that only Americans these days can do. Unless you maintain a medical emergency capacity at exactly the worst kind of disaster you want to be prepared with (which is what we do, it's just that this emergency without curbing public life will thoroughly go past those limits), you will run into emergencies like this one where the existing capacities are insufficient, period. And once that you run into such a capacity limit hard, equally hard decisions must be made, and I'm glad that it's doctors making those decisions based on medical considerations rather than selling the scarce resources to those with the deepest pockets, as some here proposed already. When you can't save everybody, there's two ways to handle it - triage, the utilitarian method where you help those with the best chances (no wonder the military came up with that), or purely random chance (the least injust way). I think that empirical observation shows that the majority of people is fine with the principles of triage even if the lottery offers better chances to the weakest, but I will freely admit that this is ultimately a value-based choice where there are no "correct" answers.

 

The US healthcare system will come to its limits just as others do, as a consequence of decisions made early on. The dominos have all been set long ago, and are now falling as planned, and the ability of leaders to respond to the crisis is largely limited to curbing public life.

 

 

This isn't a political question of what "system" you have.

 

 

It's a question of how quickly the emergencies ramp up and if, when, how much, and for how long they will exceed the capacities that are currently installed. I note that the US don't have more ICUs installed than the average European country with their dreaded "socialist" medicine because, well, ICUs are expensive to set up and need highly trained staff to operate, and you can't train intensive care personnel and then put it into cold storage until you need them. Unused ICUs are a cost factor - both for profit-oriented clinics and state sponsored clinics with limited budgets, so any clinic manager will provide just as much as they need (or are mandated by law) for 80...95% of all days and then hope for the best.

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IMO

( I haven´t watched your videos. But generally EU countries taking in / letting in / inviting / tolerating illegal entry 2. and 3. world overpopulation is idiotic. So 10 to 20 % of each EU countries population are 2. and 3. world "immigrants" - and who have not paid a dime into health systen etc. and need all to cared for. )

The stone industry would have managed otherwise. Having a cheap mass of potential labor is nice, like having slaves.

If you look at the new report, it was on its last legs because nobody wanted to do the work. If the Chinese hadnt done it, it wouldnt exist.

 

If anyone can show the Chinese had an above average usage of the Italian health service in this crisis, then such claims might have validity. But I see no evidence of it.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

There is nothing stopping you to pay as much money as you want/can to get better treatment in European healthcare systems.

 

Thats right. Same here.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

There is nothing stopping you to pay as much money as you want/can to get better treatment in European healthcare systems.

 

 

How do you do this ? The health care is fairly equal for those who pay nothing to those who are privately insured and pay max monthly charge.

 

Have repeatedly tryed to get shorter waiting time by offering $$$ - never worked.

Also asked for doc to talk with me longer by offering $$$ - never worked either.

They do what is necessary, regardless of race creed gender or color, in order of appointment, and then work up the bill according to fixed regulations.

Edited by Martin M
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IMO

( I haven´t watched your videos. But generally EU countries taking in / letting in / inviting / tolerating illegal entry 2. and 3. world overpopulation is idiotic. So 10 to 20 % of each EU countries population are 2. and 3. world "immigrants" - and who have not paid a dime into health systen etc. and need all to cared for. )

The stone industry would have managed otherwise. Having a cheap mass of potential labor is nice, like having slaves.

If you look at the new report, it was on its last legs because nobody wanted to do the work. If the Chinese hadnt done it, it wouldnt exist.

 

If anyone can show the Chinese had an above average usage of the Italian health service in this crisis, then such claims might have validity. But I see no evidence of it.

 

It´s a statement of general burden on health care systems.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

There is nothing stopping you to pay as much money as you want/can to get better treatment in European healthcare systems.

 

 

How do you do this ? The health care is fairly equal for those who pay nothing to those who are privately insured and pay max monthly charge.

 

Have repeatedly tryed to get shorter waiting time by offering $$$ - never worked.

Also asked for doc to talk with me longer by offering $$$ - never worked either.

They do what is necessary, in order of appointment, and then work up the bill according to fixed regulations.

 

Cant speak for Europe, but here you get private health insurance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupa

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This is reportedly in a Madrid hospital.

 

It is indeed, hospital ran out of beds, while it has an unused wing that was never completed. Patients should have been moved to another hospital but there are so many ambulances - it's more a reflection of incompetence than overflow.

 

Re. Italy - illegal immigrants or Chinese are not the ones overloading the system, nearly all of the dead are older Italians (which are more vulnerable) and the virus was traced genetically to S. Germany. Unsurprisingly, illegal immigrants tend to be younger so they won't make much use of public healthcare as they need to work to earn money, and statistically are in the groups less affected by the virus. Should they have been a significant %, it would have been on the news with Salvini's face all over the place.

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In Europe we are seeing the utter failure of state controlled health systems. I rather have a system where the money you pay decides the quality of help you get, than some socialist doctor deciding your worth for the society. Let this be a warning to our American friends, protect your system at all costs.

There is nothing stopping you to pay as much money as you want/can to get better treatment in European healthcare systems.

 

 

I dunno elsewhere, but here in Spain, it's better to get the diagnostics done in the private side and the treatments on the public healthcare. The first one has a smaller waiting list, the second one is not driven by profit and will use better and more expensive means.

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