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3 hours ago, Rickard N said:

I honestly don't know if anyone can make a risk assessment.

Rubbish. folks can make an informed risk assessment, it doesn't mean they can predict how all the variables will land. Alcohol and smoking are linked to increased risks of cancer. Have they banned both? or do people make their own choices and take their chances? Does everyone have a specifically quantified gauge of what all of their cancer risks are? Of course not. 

 

My own risk assessment is that I never started smoking, but I do drink moderately, usually, beer, port, scotch, etc Quality over quantity, so never to excess. Thats a risk assessment and a decision tree I make for myself and it’s no one else’s to stick their nose into. 

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6 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Explain please. 

I think what he means (pardon me if I'm improperly speaking for you, RETAC) is that most of the posters here (I can count three at least) who are bitching about the vaccines have already been vaccinated. Probably goes for most Republican politicians as well. I'm not mad at people who don't get vaxxed to own the libs because I don't hate people who are dumb, I hate Fox with a mad burning passion https://thehill.com/media/568673-fox-news-requires-employees-to-provide-vaccination-status

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So?  Just because someone decided to get it for their own personal choice doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to. The only thing it shows is that anyone calling them antivaxers un-ironically are some kind of knuckle dragging infantry reject who couldn’t pour water out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole. 

Why does the concept of free choice seem to be so beyond the ken of leftists? 

I know people who are life-styler BDSM kinksters, fancy screwed together titanium collars and everything. That they choose this with their partners doesn’t remotely comport to anyone making such a choice for another person against their will in any bloody way.  They are entirely separate.

You might as well be confusing voluntary consensual sex with forcible rape and arguing the former is justification for the latter. 

 

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10 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

I know, I know, it was in jest. 

Only the uninformed put their full faith on vaccines, but most of us can make a reasoned approach to the risks of suffering COVID vs getting vaccinated... I hope.

i am vaccinated as is my older daughter, my wife has been having recurring heart issues they can't figure out and my youngest daughter has diabetes, celiac and other autoimmune stuff going on, it's a real crap shoot to take the vaccine or not for them.

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1 hour ago, Colin said:

i am vaccinated as is my older daughter, my wife has been having recurring heart issues they can't figure out and my youngest daughter has diabetes, celiac and other autoimmune stuff going on, it's a real crap shoot to take the vaccine or not for them.

Which makes it more important for others to get vaccinated so they are less likely to pass it to them.

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13 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

The guardian article fails to mention the real impact of the recent announcement about Covid no longer being considered a socially critical disease. What that means is that the government no longer has the power to impose nation-wide restrictions on people's freedom.  Local authorities could still enact certain measures, like closing a school or restricting mass gatherings, if infections or strain on local health care capacity become untenable, but without a formal declaration of the disease being an emergency, the government abandoned the powers it had accrued back in March 2020.

That is pretty notable, and IMO laudable.

Mind you, there were never any requirement at any point in Denmark that people wear a mask outside. On the contrary, even in the most locked down periods, the authorities recommended people be outside as much as possible, observe reasonably social distancing at all times, and mask up when indoors in public spaces.

As predicted at the outset there were some errors made, but on the whole I think the authorities in Denmark have walked the fine line between freedom and reasonable restrictions pretty well (and I am saying that as someone who is politically definitely in opposition to the current social democratic government).

The Prime Minister also quite early on stated in public that while the government would strongly recommend and encourage vaccination for those people for whom the vaccines have been approved (i.e. not kids), at no time would there ever be a vaccine mandate, since the government does not have the authority to make that imposition on people's own autonomy.

 

Soren

 

 

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11 hours ago, Rickard N said:

I honestly don't know if anyone can make a risk assessment. I know a guy from my military service who went into ventilator care, 40ish years old fit guy.
There seems to be too many unknowns in this, AFAIU not even medical staff can see any obvious pattern on who gets seriously ill and who gets cold-like symptoms.

/R

You can always make a risk assesment, even if you are not 100% sure of the underlying numbers. So doing very rough math:

COVID-19 mortality for the US: 1.6%

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccine: 2-5/1000000 = between 0.0002-0.0005%

Thrombosis after the J&J shot: 45/1430000= 0,00031%

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination: 0.0020%

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

And there's more than enough evidence that vaccination reduces deaths:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/vaccines-prevented-140000-covid-19-deaths-us

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-06-03/the-vaccine-effect-in-spain-lower-mortality-across-all-groups-and-a-drop-in-average-age-of-death.html

https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/6/3/129/pdf

 

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5 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

You can always make a risk assesment, even if you are not 100% sure of the underlying numbers. So doing very rough math:

COVID-19 mortality for the US: 1.6%

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccine: 2-5/1000000 = between 0.0002-0.0005%

Thrombosis after the J&J shot: 45/1430000= 0,00031%

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination: 0.0020%

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

And there's more than enough evidence that vaccination reduces deaths:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/vaccines-prevented-140000-covid-19-deaths-us

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-06-03/the-vaccine-effect-in-spain-lower-mortality-across-all-groups-and-a-drop-in-average-age-of-death.html

https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/6/3/129/pdf

 

From the page of one of those you call "anti-vaxxers", a registered ER nurse with several decades of experience in this case, some VAERS data from August 27th: http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2021/09/meh.html
 

Quote

No Big Deal.

After all, what's 32,000 deaths and permanent disabilities, between friends, right? In just 9 months of trying.

From 650,077 reported vaccination cases, and VAERS data is underreported.

Lack of reliable data is one of the causes of friction in warfare, and in these matters one should remember that "Primum non nocere" maxim of the medical profession.

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4 minutes ago, sunday said:

From the page of one of those you call "anti-vaxxers", a registered ER nurse with several decades of experience in this case, some VAERS data from August 27th: http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2021/09/meh.html
 

From 650,077 reported vaccination cases, and VAERS data is underreported.

Lack of reliable data is one of the causes of friction in warfare, and in these matters one should remember that "Primum non nocere" maxim of the medical profession.

Yes, of course, you can always trust a random blog with a screenshot that comes form who knows where and run with the numbers.

It's not like there's a 50/50 chance of dying from COVID anyway, it's just that the chance of dying if unvaccinated is 10.000 times higher than have an adverse reaction, but hey, it's your choice, and if you get COVID and pass it to someone that couldn't be vaccinated, well, it sucks to be them...

 

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44 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Yes, of course, you can always trust a random blog with a screenshot that comes form who knows where and run with the numbers.

It's not like there's a 50/50 chance of dying from COVID anyway, it's just that the chance of dying if unvaccinated is 10.000 times higher than have an adverse reaction, but hey, it's your choice, and if you get COVID and pass it to someone that couldn't be vaccinated, well, it sucks to be them...

 

Hubris. Like "El País", a notably bigoted leftist newspaper, is more reliable than a blogger that was able to correctly assess in advance the impact of Ebola in the USA health infrastructure. But, hey, he is "against vaccines, so I know he is wrong".

Well, now the original article, with links to VAERS data from September, 3rd.

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/human-rights/cdc-teens-injected-with-covid-shots-have-7-5-times-more-deaths-15-times-more-disabilities-44-times-more-hospitalizations-than-all-fda-approved-vaccines-in-2021
 

Quote

CDC: teens injected with COVID shots have 7.5 times more deaths, 15 times more disabilities, 44 times more hospitalizations than all FDA approved vaccines in 2021

The CDC did another data dump into their Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database today. As of August 27, 2021 there have been 13,911 deaths, 2,933,377 injury symptoms, 18,098 permanent disabilities, 76,160 ER visits, 56,912 hospitalizations, and 14,327 life threatening events recorded following experimental COVID-19 “vaccinations.”

There have now been more than twice as many deaths recorded following COVID-19 shots during the past 9 months since the COVID-19 shots were given emergency use authorization, than deaths recorded following ALL vaccines for the past 30 years.

From January 1, 1991 to November 30, 2020, the last month before the COVID shots were given emergency use authorization, there were only a total of 6,068 deaths recorded (mostly infant babies) following ALL vaccines. (Source.)

And yet, the CDC continues to push everyone to get a COVID-19 shot.

Not my circus, not my monkeys - you have free will, you should exercise it.

Edited by sunday
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27 minutes ago, sunday said:

Hubris. Like "El País", a notably bigoted leftist newspaper, is more reliable than a blogger that was able to correctly assess in advance the impact of Ebola in the USA health infrastructure. But, hey, he is "against vaccines, so I know he is wrong".

Well, now the original article, with links to the original VAERS data, apparently.

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/human-rights/cdc-teens-injected-with-covid-shots-have-7-5-times-more-deaths-15-times-more-disabilities-44-times-more-hospitalizations-than-all-fda-approved-vaccines-in-2021
 

Not my circus, not my monkeys - you have free will, you should exercise it.

Again, you want to see what you want to see, as you aren't comparing COVID vaccine deaths to COVID deaths, but to other vaccines, without taking into account the amount of vaccines administered either.... Let's guess, a lot more COVID-19 vaccines have been given than all the others combined times a factor.

So, let's get this out once and for all: you are saying people shouldn't get the COVID-19 vaccine.

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19 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Again, you want to see what you want to see, as you aren't comparing COVID vaccine deaths to COVID deaths, but to other vaccines, without taking into account the amount of vaccines administered either.... Let's guess, a lot more COVID-19 vaccines have been given than all the others combined times a factor.

So, let's get this out once and for all: you are saying people shouldn't get the COVID-19 vaccine.

Really?

Are you saying that, in the USA, all previous vaccines, like smallpox, rubella, polio, mumps, etc. amount for a lower number of doses administered than the sundry covid vaccines?

Even if 100% of the US population has received one or several of those, while the covid vaccination rate in USA is 53.2% as of yesterday?

I hope you have some good figures to back that. Really good figures.

Edited by sunday
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2 hours ago, R011 said:

Which makes it more important for others to get vaccinated so they are less likely to pass it to them.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/israel-registers-record-daily-coronavirus-cases/articleshow/85793960.cms

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Small pox vaccine produced 19 deaths per 18 million vaccinated (plus 4 additional suspected but not proven to be caused by the vaccination) during 1972. inoculation in Yugoslavia. Which is ~about same rate as AZ has. I have previously posted how many were also seriously affected with lasting consequences (IIRC few 100s).

BCG vaccine had about same 1/million death rate among children, base on more than 30 years of data.

Even worst vaccine ever produced, Japanese MMR had 3/100k death rate vs 41/100k death rate for unvaccinated children.

 

It is basically same story as Introduction of helmets in WW1 which has lead to a sharp (1700% or something wild as that) increase in the number of people hospitalized for head and neck injury. Some people deduced that helmets are causing those. Other realized that those people would have most probably died w/o it.

 

Edited by bojan
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USA population is 332.92 million. 53.2% are vaccinated against COVID, so 177.11 million have received the vaccine, one or both doses is not very relevant.

VAERS has reports of 13,911 deaths, aggregated, because of the COVID vaccines, so about 78.54 deaths/million.

Even if one takes only the "Death" row of this table, 7,414, it results on 41.86 deaths/million.

I am beginning to guess there are data collection standards that are not comparable worldwide.

Edited by sunday
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52 minutes ago, sunday said:

Really?

Are you saying that, in the USA, all previous vaccines, like smallpox, rubella, polio, mumps, etc. amount for a lower number of doses administered than the sundry covid vaccines?

Even if 100% of the US population has received one or several of those, while the covid vaccination rate in USA is 53.2% as of yesterday?

I hope you have some good figures to back that. Really good figures.

No, you can check the figures yourself and prove me wrong, I´ll be happy to admit it.

In the meantime, you can just answer this: people should or shouldn't get the COVID-19 vaccine, in your informed opinion?

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5 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

No, you can check the figures yourself and prove me wrong, I´ll be happy to admit it.

I already did, and you are wrong, as most infant vaccinations in USA cover upwards of 90% of the population, for instance.

Not only wrong, but spectacularly wrong.

Keep putting strawmen for the unwary in the meanwhile, please.

Edited by sunday
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12 minutes ago, sunday said:

USA population is 332.92 million. 53.2% are vaccinated against COVID, so 177.11 million have received the vaccine, one or both doses is not very relevant.

VAERS has reports of 13,911 deaths, aggregated, because of the COVID vaccines, so about 78.54 deaths/million.

Even if one takes only the "Death" row of this table, 7,414, it results on 41.86 deaths/million.

I am beginning to guess there are data collection standards that are not comparable worldwide.

Of course, a more pertinent comparison would be:

COVID deaths per million: 1988.81

COVID vaacine deaths per million: 78.54

Your choice.

 

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2 minutes ago, sunday said:

I already did. You are wrong, as most infant vaccinations in USA cover upwards of 90% of the population.

Oh, so you are also comparing population groups that aren't cmparable, like infants vs adults.

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1 minute ago, sunday said:

Strawmen, strawmen...

How low the mighty have fallen.

Funny you say that, becuase you haven't answered the quetion:

So people should or shouldn't get the COVID-19 vaccine, in your informed opinion?

 

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8 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Funny you say that, becuase you haven't answered the quetion:

So people should or shouldn't get the COVID-19 vaccine, in your informed opinion?

 

No, I have not, and I will not, because that question is a strawman. But, heck, feel free to count it as a win, as you will not reap any of those from on now.

BTW, here is a definition of straw man argument, from here:
 

Quote

The straw man technique takes place when an opponent’s argument or position is distorted or oversimplified so that it can easily be refuted

 

Edited by sunday
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3 minutes ago, sunday said:

No, I have not, and I will not, because that question is a strawman. But, heck, feel free to count it as a win, as you will not reap any of those from on now.

it's a strawman? how? do you have a view or you don't on the COVID vaccine?

I am a bit confused, becuase you got the shots but apparently you are recomending other don't get them because they are unduly dangerous (even though, hopefully, you will admit they are less dangerous than COVID itself)

I don't see this as a win or lose, I am just asking for some clarity, I don't think this is an unreasonable request. But up to you.

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This kind of position is called marrullería in Spanish, bit related to the English term "cajoler".

Try again with a bit more of good faith, please.

Good faith, for instance, means to not use cheap logical fallacies. Recognizing when one is wrong, too. But I seldom recall you doing that in this grate sight, probably because you are of the school that apologizing is for weaklings.

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