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7 hours ago, DKTanker said:

a drug more novel than the virus it was to combat

Show me a single case in medical history where a drug was tailored for a germ that had not yet been discovered.

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7 hours ago, DKTanker said:

the first mRNA vaccines ever created

Yeah, but there are also vector vaccines which are not mRNA. AZ, J&J's J, Sputnik.

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16 hours ago, bojan said:

Which one?

2nd dose of AZ made me really, really sleepy for two days, but nothing more. Brother had some arm pain, but nothing serious.

Moderna. Yes, local pain in arm aswell.

If you get a blood-transfusion from someone with antibodies, do these protect you? If so, is the protection gone after, say, 90 days? Will the transfused antibodies trigger antibody-production with the recipient?

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12 hours ago, sunday said:

That is the reason why the approval process of a new drug is so long and exhaustive. Kung Flu vaccines were rushed, without animal testing, for instance, because they were necessary, but the long term effects are unknown.

Feel free to channel Mr. Micawber, however.

In actuality, there was a very great deal of intensive in vivo (lab animal) testing of all of these vaccines.  The gaps come in two areas, the longer term toxicology and repro-tox studies that run for 12-14 months simply because while started they have to go for that length of time and also have the generational cohorts.  A lot of financial risks were taken (which is why Operation Warp speed was so critical) and a lot of parallel redundancy was done where follow on studies were started before the results were in on the previous developmental one.  That didn't effect safety, it did mean comparatively more studies were run and more branching studies were run which was much more expensive.

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6 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Show me a single case in medical history where a drug was tailored for a germ that had not yet been discovered.

Seasonal flu vaccinations.  Oh, and by the way, SARs-CoV-19 is still a coronavirus and, coronaviruses have been identified and studies since the 1960s.  Covid-19 is a new man made type of corona virus, but is still a coronavirus.  Knowing what type of virus they were working with undoubtedly made the scientist's job of creating a vaccination significantly easier.  

The novelty to which I was referring, as I'm sure you well understood, is the totally new, or novel, approach to creating vaccination drugs.

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2 hours ago, nitflegal said:

In actuality, there was a very great deal of intensive in vivo (lab animal) testing of all of these vaccines.  The gaps come in two areas, the longer term toxicology and repro-tox studies that run for 12-14 months simply because while started they have to go for that length of time and also have the generational cohorts. 

Having just learned about this from the Bret Weinstein podcast posted previously, WTF is this? How is it done?

It sounds like an RCT where the test group has a bunch of babies and the researchers count eyes, hands, feet, gills, tails, etc.

Is anybody doing a before/after full DNA sequencing?

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3 hours ago, nitflegal said:

In actuality, there was a very great deal of intensive in vivo (lab animal) testing of all of these vaccines.  The gaps come in two areas, the longer term toxicology and repro-tox studies that run for 12-14 months simply because while started they have to go for that length of time and also have the generational cohorts.  A lot of financial risks were taken (which is why Operation Warp speed was so critical) and a lot of parallel redundancy was done where follow on studies were started before the results were in on the previous developmental one.  That didn't effect safety, it did mean comparatively more studies were run and more branching studies were run which was much more expensive.

Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected on the matter of animal testing.

I suppose the long term toxicology was bypassed because of the urgency to have anything to deal with a pandemic, probably believing some future treatment for the secondary effects could be developed afterwards.

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4 hours ago, DKTanker said:

 

The novelty to which I was referring, as I'm sure you well understood, is the totally new, or novel, approach to creating vaccination drugs.

If you are fan of classics you can always have Sinopharm :)

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12 hours ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

Moderna. Yes, local pain in arm aswell.

If you get a blood-transfusion from someone with antibodies, do these protect you? If so, is the protection gone after, say, 90 days? Will the transfused antibodies trigger antibody-production with the recipient?

The wife and I received the Moderna versions without any troubles at all. Well, except for this "song" that ran through my head

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J52ADRbnWg

 

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My wife and in-laws here have been explaining to extended family members in Japan that their choice (and her husband's choice) to opt for vaccination was in fact voluntary, for months now. There essentially have been a lot of inferences of "why are you doing that?" in those conversations. 

That sentiment has decreased somewhat this past month.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rick said:

The wife and I received the Moderna versions without any troubles at all. Well, except for this "song" that ran through my head

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J52ADRbnWg

 

Sounds like you got the Compton vaccine.

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I got the first Pzizer jab and aside from a slightly sore shoulder for a day, nothing. Same with the wife unit and my father.

My mother, on the other hand, got Moderna and about 48 hours later felt poorly with a fever. She was hospitalized with Pneumonia the next day, and spent two days in the hospital while the doctors were beating that down. Then she was fine.  When she got her second Moderna shot, she started feeling poorly after 48 hours and again went to the hospital with pneumonia, but the doctors - being alert this time - got her treated more quickly and she spent only a day at the hospital before being released.  Of course, she also has a somewhat rare type of leukemia, that while treatable, definitely puts her in the at-risk category, both from covid, but apparently also for various side effects of the vaccines.

The eldest son, being 20 and quite fit, has decided to forego getting vaccinated at this point, which I believe makes sense.

One acquaintance who is 56, collapsed on the floor two minutes after receiving his first Pzizer shot. He spent about 3 days after that with mild flu-like symptoms, but he is a bit anxious about the second shot a few weeks from now.

Brother-in-law, who is a 39-year old physician (and a very fit extreme sports junkie) got the first AZ shot a few months ago (before they halted that vaccine here) and was dead tired to the point of hibernation for 48 hours afterwards. He is not getting the second AZ shot, nor any other vaccine, having weighed the risks. His wife, also a physician a general practitioner, had no ill effects from her first AZ shot, but is also leaving it as-is, saying she has seen enough side effects to her patients to be a bit wary.

 

--

Soren

 

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Although I felt quite tired after my second dose of AZ, it felt nothing more than a relaxation of the pent-up stress from waiting, and work.

The 20 year old who has opted to not take a vaccination may not be evaluating the risks correctly, based on the increasing incidence rates in the UK from the delta (Indian) variant, which are now associated with increased symptoms in the younger demographic and rising hospitalisation rates (although relatively lower compared to the earlier waves.

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3 hours ago, Soren Ras said:

Brother-in-law, who is a 39-year old physician (and a very fit extreme sports junkie) got the first AZ shot a few months ago (before they halted that vaccine here) and was dead tired to the point of hibernation for 48 hours afterwards. He is not getting the second AZ shot, nor any other vaccine, having weighed the risks. His wife, also a physician a general practitioner, had no ill effects from her first AZ shot, but is also leaving it as-is, saying she has seen enough side effects to her patients to be a bit wary.

 

Did he expect he could  go on his merry way after the shot? As a physician he should understand how vaccines work.

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1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

Did he expect he could  go on his merry way after the shot? As a physician he should understand how vaccines work.

He probably understands that this is unusual for a vaccination.  Unlike most vaccines we don't have a long enough complications record to predict which people will get hammered or not.  We've also never gone to this extensive a rollout on a new vaccine platform; only the IPV polio vaccine comes anywhere close and we pulled it after a decade because of the complications when a safer alternative came available.  

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21 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Having just learned about this from the Bret Weinstein podcast posted previously, WTF is this? How is it done?

It sounds like an RCT where the test group has a bunch of babies and the researchers count eyes, hands, feet, gills, tails, etc.

Is anybody doing a before/after full DNA sequencing?

Traditionally you go with two species that have the shortest gestation periods that you can get away with, typically mice (maybe rats, depends on the target regions where you expect damage could occur) and rabbits or equivalent.  Dose at high levels and monitor overt defects, birthing rates, and DNA damage.  

If you really want to dig into the joy of it here is the FDA guidance https://www.fda.gov/media/72231/download

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20 hours ago, sunday said:

Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected on the matter of animal testing.

I suppose the long term toxicology was bypassed because of the urgency to have anything to deal with a pandemic, probably believing some future treatment for the secondary effects could be developed afterwards.

To be clear, it wasn't bypassed as those studies are actively ongoing.  We just won't have anything besides interim results until they get completed.

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the current situation vis a vis vaccines and the Wuhan Flu is that exceptional circumstances dictated unusual requirements.  For the most part the vaccines seem to work.  The MRNA tech may be a boon long term.

Arguing about the vaccines should be subsidiary to how we got into this mess in the first place.   As usual, China owns the WHO so don't expect much results.  It is to China's benefit that the discussion is wrapped around the effectiveness of the vaccine rather than why we need it in the first place...

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3 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Did he expect he could  go on his merry way after the shot? As a physician he should understand how vaccines work.

He knows very well how they work, and it was not his own reaction to the shot that has decided his view. That reaction was well within normal or "expected" parameters. Since AZ was halted completely in Denmark, however, he would have to go out of his way to obtain the second shot, and since the efficacy of just the first jab is sufficient to mitigate almost completely the risk of a severe covid case, the risk of which was low to begin with for someone like him, his view is essentially that if he catches Covid, he is already well protected against it getting serious and the risk/benefit analysis he made of either going for a second AZ shot or mixing vaccines by opting for one of the other available types, is such that he has come down on not pursuing vaccination further at this point. He has very good access to the colleagues doing research in the area as well as access to a lot of data unavailable to the rest of us as yet.

His current view might change depending on what the data says, and it remains the case that as humans we are usually not all that good at evaluating risks that are very small statistically when it comes to aligning our behavior accordingly, but he is better equipped for doing so in this area than most of us.

--

Soren

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Lotsa free updates:

  • Novavax, a Maryland biotechnology company, announced 90 percent efficacy against illness, including against variants, for its two-shot coronavirus vaccine in a 30,000-person trial in the United States and Mexico — and it’s easy to store. Novavax says it will soon apply for regulatory clearance.
  • President Biden vowed Sunday that the United States would continue to supply coronavirus vaccines to the world’s poorest countries, hinting that the nation may “be in a position to provide another billion” doses over the next two years.
  • British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is set to announce Monday that England’s plan to completely end coronavirus curbs on June 21 will be delayed due to a spike in delta variant cases, according to numerous media reports.
  • The Dubai Health Authority said over the weekend that 20 percent of those testing positive for the coronavirus had already been vaccinated, in the latest sign of the challenges faced by vaccination programs that relied heavily on the Chinese Sinopharm vaccine.
  • A federal judge on Saturday dismissed a lawsuit filed by 117 staffers at Houston Methodist over the hospital’s coronavirus vaccine requirement for employees.
  • In the United States, the covid-19 death toll is nearing 600,000, with the latest deaths coming as much of the country is opening up.
  • The United States reported a seven-day rolling average of 14,665 new cases on Sunday, a slight increase from the previous week. The number of reported tests has fallen by about 23 percent in the last week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

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8 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Did he expect he could  go on his merry way after the shot? As a physician he should understand how vaccines work.

It is not like a course of anti-biotics where if you don't complete it you may help start  a resistant strain.

The first doses do provide quite a bit of protection. If some one has a bad reaction to a med not taking more of it may well be a logical decision. 

Our department got the moderna vaccine.  I had very mild reactions with both doses. It seems like those that had sever reactions with the first dose had worse reactions with the second. 

It makes sense that some one who had a sever reaction might skip the second dose.

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On 8/14/2020 at 7:15 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

There is clear evidence it makes absolutely no difference at all. But it keeps being airbrushed again and again, because it doesnt suit the political narrative that it must work, because the people who deny it works must be wrong.

This aged well. 

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