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13 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I suspect we are months from an objective study sorting out this stuff out. Political and financial fortunes were tied to vaccines (well, specific vaccines from specific Big Pharma houses traded on the NYSE), can't raise questions without suppression and job loss.

 

Typically you won't have legally (i.e. useful in a lawsuit) data for 3 years.  Might be sooner since the patient population is enormous and the roll out was so fast but that's a decent rule of thumb.  I would assume by then we will know who is liable and has the deepest pockets.  The X factor is that there is significant legal precedent for the Federal government to abrogate their agreements and the supreme court has upheld those based on the idea everyone knows the government  lies so you should have anticipated the betrayal.  The industry expects that if the side effects are significant that the government is likely to remove the shield from the vaccine companies and that's the money spigot the lawyers really want.

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Free:

  • Federal regulators have approved and extended the shelf life of the Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine by six weeks, shortly before millions of doses reach their expiration dates.
  • With coronavirus vaccines available to adolescents and adults, regulators are now turning their attention to possibly authorizing shots for children as young as 6 months.
  • The United States will provide half a billion vaccines to the world starting in the summer — the largest vaccine donation in history — as part of the G-7′s effort to end the pandemic by 2022.
  • The United States on Thursday reported a seven-day rolling average of 15,692 new infections. Since Dec. 14, more than 305 million doses of coronavirus vaccine have been administered in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/11/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

 

Paywalled:

Yes, we’ll all probably need a coronavirus booster shot. But which one?

Quote

“As we know, covid is not going to go away anytime soon, and we know that the antibodies decrease over time, so that a boost will be needed at some juncture. I can’t predict when,” said John Beigel, associate director for clinical research in the Division of Microbiology and Infectious Diseases at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.  

Beigel is working on a U.S. trial, set to launch this week, that will provide one piece of the answer, testing whether people can mix and match shots when the need arises. Can a person fully vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine in February take a third shot of Moderna? Is there an advantage — or a risk — in switching from one brand or vaccine technology to another?

The U.S. efforts come as health experts in China are already recommending a third coronavirus shot to some at-risk individuals.   Scientists are analyzing blood samples from the first people who were vaccinated a year ago in trials, hoping to determine whether antibodies continue to stick around or if they vanish. Earlier research found that the disease fighters remain at robust levels for at least six months following Moderna vaccination, although variants can complicate that, with antibody protection that fades faster. A recent Nature study found that antibodies do decline after people recover from infection, but they don’t keep plummeting — they plateau and persist nearly a year later.   The clinical trial being launched by NIAID will systematically test whether people who received one brand of vaccine in January — a single shot of Johnson & Johnson, two shots of the Moderna vaccine or two shots of Pfizer-BioNTech — need to get the same brand of vaccine, or whether there might be benefits to mixing and matching.  In the United States, chief executives of companies that make vaccines have predicted booster shots will be needed before the end of the year. Pfizer chief executive Albert Bourla recently told Axios that boosters could be needed as soon as September or October.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/05/27/covid-vaccine-booster-shots/

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Which one?

2nd dose of AZ made me really, really sleepy for two days, but nothing more. Brother had some arm pain, but nothing serious.

Edited by bojan
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I had a second dose of AZ Monday.  It gave me enough intestinal upset the next day that I took a generic Imodium and was then OK.  No further issues.

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Second Pfizer shot made me feel like I had a minor flu for 48 hours — nothing huge, more like “consider maybe taking the day off work if nothing big is going on.” Annoying part was that I felt fine for the first 24 hours and thought I had dodged the bullet…

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I really don’t understand the reasoning behind rushing out to get a vaccination where the side effects seems to be as bad as those from the disease itself, at least as reported by those I personally know (about 10 people) that got COVID.

Disclaimer- the above was posted by someone who got the J&J shot and other than a slightly tender arm for maybe 8 hours had no reaction…….

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Deaths from AZ seem to be about 32 cases in 21 million people vaccinated in the UK.  Deaths from Covid seem to be 128,000 out of 4.55 million cases.

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16 minutes ago, R011 said:

Deaths from AZ seem to be about 32 cases in 21 million people vaccinated in the UK.  Deaths from Covid seem to be 128,000 out of 4.55 million cases.

Currently.

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9 minutes ago, R011 said:

Deaths from AZ seem to be about 32 cases in 21 million people vaccinated in the UK.  Deaths from Covid seem to be 128,000 out of 4.55 million cases.

Apologies for pointing out that those statistics are all but meaningless without greater information.  The first obvious question is, how many people that succumbed to Covid-19 before vaccines became available would have also succumbed to the vaccine?  The second obvious point is that those being vaccinated are self-selected, those that contract Covid seem to be a bit of random chance.  Third, and this may take years and years to discern, how many deaths consigned to Covid were in reality death with Covid as opposed to death by covid?  Lastly, we cannot assume causation solely from correlation.

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given the number of Covid deaths is about 13 [b]thousand[/b] times that of AZ, those questions are minor quibbles, especially the third as the same applies to blood clot deaths - how many were actually caused by AZ rather than coincidental? And even if half the Covid deaths are with rather than from it, that's still a concerning number.

UK death rate per hundred thousand from Covid:

With Covid - about 2000

Everyone: - about 190

UK death rate per hundred thousand vaccinated with AZ from blood clots:

About 0.15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

uDeaths per  hundred thousand:

From/with Covid: 

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Even in the 18-25 y/o population chances of dying from Covid are ~100 times greater than dying from the AZ vaccine (local death rate for covid vs total deaths from AZ).

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R011, how do you know that all, or a statistically significative number of, deaths due to the vaccine have happened already? How do you know how much time the vaccine needs to kill?

Because if you do not, or you could not prove it, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Thalidomide was qualified as safe, for instance. Only in Europe, however. US FDA protected the American public of that one.

Edited by sunday
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AZ has been in use and under test for ling enough that genetic effects like thalidomide would be presenting themselves now. Similarly, direct toxic effects of drugs are not usually so delayed that we would be surprised by now. On the other hand, we do know very well what Covid does in a population even when not fatal.

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5 hours ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

2nd shot Thursday. No energy yesterday or today, shivers, but no fever. Now a squishy lump in my left arm-pit. Same squishy lump as I got in right arm-pit after first shot (right arm), so at least there is consistency. 🙂

Those are the larvae, nothing to worry about.

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42 minutes ago, R011 said:

AZ has been in use and under test for ling enough that genetic effects like thalidomide would be presenting themselves now. Similarly, direct toxic effects of drugs are not usually so delayed that we would be surprised by now. On the other hand, we do know very well what Covid does in a population even when not fatal.

Not if the effects only manifest themselves in 10 to 20 years, especially by mechanisms not wholly understood.

Edited by sunday
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You can say that about any new medication.  In real lie, few if any suddenly manifest effects in ten or twenty years. These treatments are not that novel that their mechanisms are not reasonably well understood.

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30 minutes ago, R011 said:

You can say that about any new medication.  In real lie, few if any suddenly manifest effects in ten or twenty years. These treatments are not that novel that their mechanisms are not reasonably well understood.

That is the reason why the approval process of a new drug is so long and exhaustive. Kung Flu vaccines were rushed, without animal testing, for instance, because they were necessary, but the long term effects are unknown.

Feel free to channel Mr. Micawber, however.

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Twenty one million "tests" in the UK alone in the last few months.  That's as good or better than you'd get in a lab.  Not to mention the testing that was done before approval.  They don't do actual animal testing much longer than that.

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I meant long term effects. Shall I remember that one does not get a baby in a month instead of nine by impregnating nine women instead of one?

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47 minutes ago, R011 said:

You can say that about any new medication.  In real lie, few if any suddenly manifest effects in ten or twenty years. These treatments are not that novel that their mechanisms are not reasonably well understood.

Actually they are novel.  Now it is true that scientists have discussed using mRNA to teach cells how to deal with a disease going on 60 years now, and it is true that recently (last 10 years or so) study and research has ramped up significantly, but it is false to assert the treatments are not novel, they most certainly are.  Novel as in the first mRNA vaccines ever created were created specifically for Covid-19.  And while the mechanisms may be well understood, that doesn't mean long term effects are understood in the least.

Don't get me wrong, I think the vaccines have their place.  Example, because of my medical history I weighed the risk of being vaccinated with a drug more novel than the virus it was to combat, against that of contracting Covid-19 and the known risks thereof.  I've been fully vaccinated since 3/24/21, but I didn't leave my common sense and healthy skepticism behind on 3/25/21.

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1 hour ago, sunday said:

I meant long term effects. Shall I remember that one does not get a baby in a month instead of nine by impregnating nine women instead of one?

Limbs of thalidomide babies didn't drop off years after birth.

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53 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

Actually they are novel.  Now it is true that scientists have discussed using mRNA to teach cells how to deal with a disease going on 60 years now, and it is true that recently (last 10 years or so) study and research has ramped up significantly, but it is false to assert the treatments are not novel, they most certainly are.  Novel as in the first mRNA vaccines ever created were created specifically for Covid-19.  And while the mechanisms may be well understood, that doesn't mean long term effects are understood in the least.

Don't get me wrong, I think the vaccines have their place.  Example, because of my medical history I weighed the risk of being vaccinated with a drug more novel than the virus it was to combat, against that of contracting Covid-19 and the known risks thereof.  I've been fully vaccinated since 3/24/21, but I didn't leave my common sense and healthy skepticism behind on 3/25/21.

OK, I thought the technology had more of a track record than that.  I still think it most likely that these vaccines are safe than not and that the lack so far of more than a handful of serious side effects is indicative.

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