Arnhem - Best Book By Far!

[Rich]

Looks like the wiki article needs to be corrected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arnhem

Good luck with that, the SS-Fan-Boys-United clique in Wiki will be all over any attempt at changes to the preferred narrative like stink on shit.

[BillB]

Looks like the wiki article needs to be corrected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arnhem

Yes, I had a skim over that wiki page and there are a few things that need correcting if only for focus & nuance. Ironically, although it's only cited once regarding the scapegoating of Sosabowski, my first book on Arnhem is listed in there; it contains much of the analysis in the new book, just not in as much detail.

 

BillB

[Yama]

The British came close on Crete. Ok they lost, but the Parachute forces never really recovered.

Norwegians defeated them with improvised defences in couple of occasions, and the Dutch wiped them out in Hague.

Airborne operations are, by default, high risk-high reward and total loss of force is always a possibility.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, they have been discussing that on that James Holland Podcast I keep pointing to, the very best trained men in the army being delivered by some of the worst trained pilots and crews in the RAF and USAAF. They pointed to it perhaps being a better idea at least some of the time delivering them in different ways, either gliders or even seaborne landings. I was lead to understand they actually delivered some paratroopers by sea in Sicily, and they apparently did much better than their air dropped counterparts.

 

Even the Russians today seem to be looking at other ways to deliver their paras, other than by dropping them by parachute. Their use in Georgia interestingly was also via sea landing.

[Delta tank 6]

BillB,

 

Have you ever thought about leading a “Staff Ride” for this battle? I drove from “Joe’s Bridge” to Arnhem several years ago, but it was difficult trying to drive and looking at the terrain. The traffic was really heavy, and I think ever person living in Holland was riding their bicycle that day. We then stayed in Arnhem for two days walking about, but I would of gladly paid for a “Battlefield Guide”.

 

I think you should give this some thought, if you haven’t already!

 

mike

[Harold Jones]

BillB,

 

Have you ever thought about leading a Staff Ride for this battle? I drove from Joes Bridge to Arnhem several years ago, but it was difficult trying to drive and looking at the terrain. The traffic was really heavy, and I think ever person living in Holland was riding their bicycle that day. We then stayed in Arnhem for two days walking about, but I would of gladly paid for a Battlefield Guide.

 

I think you should give this some thought, if you havent already!

 

mike

As anyone who has put together an I&I can tell you, shepherding a group of enthusiasts around a tour like that is surprisingly hard work.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Cant you just chain them all together? Or just promise them a keg of beer at the end?

[Harold Jones]

You've seen the arguments on this site about Jerry cans, can you imagine the discussion that come up about welded vs forged vs rivetted links, the advantages of brass locks and the loan voice suggesting that double strand hemp still had a place in the world of tanknet bindings.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ok, I can understand it starts getting expensive when you add the security detail armed with Tazors.

[Delta tank 6]

 

BillB,

 

Have you ever thought about leading a Staff Ride for this battle? I drove from Joes Bridge to Arnhem several years ago, but it was difficult trying to drive and looking at the terrain. The traffic was really heavy, and I think ever person living in Holland was riding their bicycle that day. We then stayed in Arnhem for two days walking about, but I would of gladly paid for a Battlefield Guide.

 

I think you should give this some thought, if you havent already!

 

mike

As anyone who has put together an I&I can tell you, shepherding a group of enthusiasts around a tour like that is surprisingly hard work.

 

Yes, that is why BillB will get paid money!! I did not suggest this tour would be for free!! I will pay!! Gladly pay!! And drag some friends along, who will also pay!

”Money talks, Bullshit walks!” a U.S. Army saying, don’t know if it translates!!

 

Mike

[RETAC21]

I would wager Bill would do it for free, if it was done riding a Vespa...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh what a sweeping sight to see,

recreating 30 Corps epic drive,

on Vespa Mk3's...

[bojan]

​

[Stuart Galbraith]

Exactly, but with more Wing Mirrors.

 

[bojan]

I would do it if Bill is willing to lead

[Ken Estes]

Cant you just chain them all together? Or just promise them a keg of beer at the end?

Already there, Stuart, hence the name Staff Baottle Rides!

[Delta tank 6]

To All,

 

Let us assume that MG is successful and the British Army gets up to the Zuiderzee on 25 September. Then what? I always get the answer we would envelope the Ruhr from the north. My question is envelope the Ruhr from the north with what? Weather? Clear western Holland first then envelope the Ruhr? Timeline? Logistics? Could this in fact be done?

 

A short story, on a guided tour of Gettysburg with a well known Civil War historian, we just finished “Pickett’s Charge” and I asked this question. Let’s assume this attack is a success, then what? The response was Lee retreats back to Virginia, he had shot his bolt, does not have the resources to exploit this victory.

 

So, with that in mind.

 

Mike

[Rich]

To All,

 

Let us assume that MG is successful and the British Army gets up to the Zuiderzee on 25 September. Then what? I always get the answer we would envelope the Ruhr from the north. My question is envelope the Ruhr from the north with what? Weather? Clear western Holland first then envelope the Ruhr? Timeline? Logistics? Could this in fact be done?

 

Yep, the problem is that Arnhem in some ways is simply another Dutch cul-de-sac. Head south or east to "outflank" the Ruhr" Cross the Ijessel and more miles of polder. Head north to Apeldoorn and Meppel? Sure, flat wooded, a bit more solid ground, but you just keep extending the corridor north and British Second Army simply doesn't have the combat power in September and October to do that...logistics, remember? So, okay, west to Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Looks like 60 miles of hell to me, which could have been circumvented if Montgomery had kept his eyes on the prize around 9-11 September.

 

 

A short story, on a guided tour of Gettysburg with a well known Civil War historian, we just finished “Pickett’s Charge” and I asked this question. Let’s assume this attack is a success, then what? The response was Lee retreats back to Virginia, he had shot his bolt, does not have the resources to exploit this victory.

So, with that in mind.

Mike

 

Sounds like fun. Aside from access to NARA about the only thing I miss moving to the PNW is the eastern battlefields and especially my ancestral home of Gettysburg. Who was your historian? I hope he did not ascribe to the late Paddy Griffiths' idea that Lee only needed a good European-style cuirassier division to win the war on 3 July 1863...

 

[JWB]

I hope he did not ascribe to the late Paddy Griffiths' idea that Lee only needed a good European-style cuirassier division to win the war on 3 July 1863...

 

[Delta tank 6]

 

To All,

 

Let us assume that MG is successful and the British Army gets up to the Zuiderzee on 25 September. Then what? I always get the answer we would envelope the Ruhr from the north. My question is envelope the Ruhr from the north with what? Weather? Clear western Holland first then envelope the Ruhr? Timeline? Logistics? Could this in fact be done?

 

Yep, the problem is that Arnhem in some ways is simply another Dutch cul-de-sac. Head south or east to "outflank" the Ruhr" Cross the Ijessel and more miles of polder. Head north to Apeldoorn and Meppel? Sure, flat wooded, a bit more solid ground, but you just keep extending the corridor north and British Second Army simply doesn't have the combat power in September and October to do that...logistics, remember? So, okay, west to Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Looks like 60 miles of hell to me, which could have been circumvented if Montgomery had kept his eyes on the prize around 9-11 September.

 

 

A short story, on a guided tour of Gettysburg with a well known Civil War historian, we just finished “Pickett’s Charge” and I asked this question. Let’s assume this attack is a success, then what? The response was Lee retreats back to Virginia, he had shot his bolt, does not have the resources to exploit this victory.

So, with that in mind.

Mike

 

Sounds like fun. Aside from access to NARA about the only thing I miss moving to the PNW is the eastern battlefields and especially my ancestral home of Gettysburg. Who was your historian? I hope he did not ascribe to the late Paddy Griffiths' idea that Lee only needed a good European-style cuirassier division to win the war on 3 July 1863...

 

 

 

Jeffry D. Wert

 

Mike

[Ken Estes]

 

To All,

 

Let us assume that MG is successful and the British Army gets up to the Zuiderzee on 25 September. Then what? I always get the answer we would envelope the Ruhr from the north. My question is envelope the Ruhr from the north with what? Weather? Clear western Holland first then envelope the Ruhr? Timeline? Logistics? Could this in fact be done?

 

Yep, the problem is that Arnhem in some ways is simply another Dutch cul-de-sac. Head south or east to "outflank" the Ruhr" Cross the Ijessel and more miles of polder. Head north to Apeldoorn and Meppel? Sure, flat wooded, a bit more solid ground, but you just keep extending the corridor north and British Second Army simply doesn't have the combat power in September and October to do that...logistics, remember? So, okay, west to Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Looks like 60 miles of hell to me, which could have been circumvented if Montgomery had kept his eyes on the prize around 9-11 September.

 

 

A short story, on a guided tour of Gettysburg with a well known Civil War historian, we just finished “Pickett’s Charge” and I asked this question. Let’s assume this attack is a success, then what? The response was Lee retreats back to Virginia, he had shot his bolt, does not have the resources to exploit this victory.

So, with that in mind.

Mike

 

Sounds like fun. Aside from access to NARA about the only thing I miss moving to the PNW is the eastern battlefields and especially my ancestral home of Gettysburg. Who was your historian? I hope he did not ascribe to the late Paddy Griffiths' idea that Lee only needed a good European-style cuirassier division to win the war on 3 July 1863...

 

 

 

"Bands of farmers circling about looking for the means to victory" Wasn't that Moltke the Elder on the ACW?

[RETAC21]

Got the book. And just the size it's impressive! seriously underpriced if you ask me.

[Rich]

 

 

Sounds like fun. Aside from access to NARA about the only thing I miss moving to the PNW is the eastern battlefields and especially my ancestral home of Gettysburg. Who was your historian? I hope he did not ascribe to the late Paddy Griffiths' idea that Lee only needed a good European-style cuirassier division to win the war on 3 July 1863...

 

 

 

"Bands of farmers circling about looking for the means to victory" Wasn't that Moltke the Elder on the ACW?

 

Funny, that's pretty much my opinion of Königgrätz...and don't even begin to get me started on the Franco-Prussian War. I think my assessment is more accurate.

[Ken Estes]

There was no competing assessment made. Somebody piss on yur Cheerios?

[Rich]

There was no competing assessment made. Somebody piss on yur Cheerios?

Nope, I just get tired of Moltke's bon mot as the response to criticism of Griffith.