Float Planes And Sea Planes

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, there was on a recent discovery channel programme. I was absolutely amazed to see it had survived, I had thought they would have all been chopped.

[JasonJ]

Yes, there was on a recent discovery channel programme. I was absolutely amazed to see it had survived, I had thought they would have all been chopped.

A few other aircraft, or sections of them, were also spared and are on display at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center.

[BansheeOne]

The most unusual role for them was carrying freight during the Berlin Airlift, alighting on Lake Havel. They undertook that till the lake froze over.

They were used to carry salt in particular, due to their hulls being protected against seawater corrosion.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, I remember reading something about that somewhere.

 

In about 1983 or so I made my first flight in an aircraft, a C47, at Duxford. When that aircraft, or another of its fleet, was refurbished by Air Atlantique a year later, they found under the floor coal dust, left over from its use in the Berlin airflift. Which just goes to show how much cargo will leak, even when you think you are being careful with it.

[Nobu]

Balbo's Atlantic Squadron's mass flight to Chicago comes to mind as perhaps the flying boat's great moment.

[17thfabn]

The Atlantic was smaller than the Pacific Ocean. The Atlantic was surrounded by land that had airfields. Indeed, most of its islands had also airfields.

 

 

 

 

 

on. --

Leo

(who loves flying boats)

 

There was a period during the Battle of the Atlantic in World War II when there was a Mid Atlantic Air Gap. Allied aircraft did not have the range to cover the convoys being attacked in the middle of the Atlantic. When the escort carriers became available the gap was closed.

 

If seaplanes and / or float planes could land and take off in the Mid Atlantic they could be used to help patrol this area. A sea plane tender could be kept in the area to support operations and a few destroyers to defend it. I suspect it wasn't done because conditions Mid Atlantic were too rough to have these aircraft take off and land. Hence my question on what conditions they could take off and land in.

[Panzermann]

 

The most unusual role for them was carrying freight during the Berlin Airlift, alighting on Lake Havel. They undertook that till the lake froze over.

They were used to carry salt in particular, due to their hulls being protected against seawater corrosion.

 

 

 

This plus it was an additional air"field" to guide traffic to.

[Stuart Galbraith]

The American commander of the airlift seemed unhappy at the British doing this. Im not sure why, perhaps he was frightened the USN would get the same idea to intervene with their Mariners.

 

Im surprised nobody thought of using Boeing 314's, but there probably wasnt many left by 1947/48.

[BansheeOne]

There was a 50s competition for a USN flying boat that could water in the open ocean and use a dipping sonar for ASW, involving the Martin P7M SubMaster, Convair XP6Y and Grumman G-132. None of them were ever built, but the technical details like a boundary layer control system for better STOL performance eventually showed up in the Japanese Shin Meiwa designs.

[Rick]

 

The Atlantic was smaller than the Pacific Ocean. The Atlantic was surrounded by land that had airfields. Indeed, most of its islands had also airfields.

 

 

 

 

 

on. --

Leo

(who loves flying boats)

 

There was a period during the Battle of the Atlantic in World War II when there was a Mid Atlantic Air Gap. Allied aircraft did not have the range to cover the convoys being attacked in the middle of the Atlantic. When the escort carriers became available the gap was closed.

 

If seaplanes and / or float planes could land and take off in the Mid Atlantic they could be used to help patrol this area. A sea plane tender could be kept in the area to support operations and a few destroyers to defend it. I suspect it wasn't done because conditions Mid Atlantic were too rough to have these aircraft take off and land. Hence my question on what conditions they could take off and land in.

 

 

The American commander of the airlift seemed unhappy at the British doing this. Im not sure why, perhaps he was frightened the USN would get the same idea to intervene with their Mariners.

 

Im surprised nobody thought of using Boeing 314's, but there probably wasnt many left by 1947/48.

Someone on this Grate Site, I think it was Ken Estes, mentioned "Our adversary is (Germany, USSR, etc), our enemy is the Army(or Navy)!

[Ken Estes]

Seaplane tenders are not designed for mid-ocean operations, generally are used in protected waters, harbors and so forth.

[shep854]

Even in the Pacific, sea states were often too rough for routine operations. There are numerous accounts of aircraft landing to affect rescues and being unable to take off again.

[Panzermann]

The American commander of the airlift seemed unhappy at the British doing this. Im not sure why, perhaps he was frightened the USN would get the same idea to intervene with their Mariners.

 

Im surprised nobody thought of using Boeing 314's, but there probably wasnt many left by 1947/48.

 

wiipedia has alist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_314_Clipper#Operators

 

none left in military service by the time of the blockade, many lost to the seas and the last one scrapped in 1951.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was a group proposing to go and look for some of the sunk ones, and if possible, recover it. They are still several million short though.

[lucklucky]

Balbo's Atlantic Squadron's mass flight to Chicago comes to mind as perhaps the flying boat's great moment.

Yes , Savoia S55 was another of nice sort of art deco designs

 

[Nobu]

The Italian Pavilion at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair was a beautiful art deco design as well.

 

Have not had to go to Chicago for a while, but am interested in visiting the Roman column gifted by Mussolini to the people of that city commemorating Balbo's feat, safety permitting.

[Ken Estes]

Canada used surplus USN Mars flying boats for firefighting into the mid-1960s, after which their own purpose-built firefighting seaplanes began service, now almost worldwide. As a kid, I saw 4-5 of these lying ashore in 1965 at Victoria Airport, British Columbia, looking like beached whales. These were the parts planes backing up the 2-3 in service.

[MiloMorai]

Canada used surplus USN Mars flying boats for firefighting into the mid-1960s, after which their own purpose-built firefighting seaplanes began service, now almost worldwide. As a kid, I saw 4-5 of these lying ashore in 1965 at Victoria Airport, British Columbia, looking like beached whales. These were the parts planes backing up the 2-3 in service.

They were used until very recently. https://www.airhistory.net/text/types/martin-jrm-mars.php

[BansheeOne]

I wish I could find back that chart of permissible sea states for operating the CL-415 I once saw. The essential point, somewhat obvious if you think about it, was that it's not just about height, but also length of waves. IIRC, even ten-foot waves are manageable if tops are a hundred meters or so apart. Which puts simpler claims like "can operate in waves of so much height" in perspective.

 

STOL performance seems most important, as higher minimum speeds will increase the force of waves hitting the aircraft by the square. Also hydrodynamics; both the Grumman Albatros and the PS/US-1A which seized on the former's construction are credited for their good seahandling in part due to their long keels and deep-v hulls. Floatplanes with single center floats also seem to handle better than the twin variety, though there might also be aerodynamic reasons why American and Japanese high-performance WW II types tended to be of the centerline type.

 

When I developed my Atlantic floatplane fighters with retractable floats, I also wondered whether including hydraulic shock absorbers into the struts like in conventional landing gear would improve performance on choppy seas. The basic idea has a long history BTW; Germany toyed with the Gotha WD.10 as early as 1916, and there was an Australian outfit that now unfortunately seems gone, but was developing a system they optimistically said could be scaled to fit conventional aircraft of different sizes, including business jets and the C-130.

 

 

 

 

[Markus Becker]

Even in the Pacific, sea states were often too rough for routine operations. There are numerous accounts of aircraft landing to affect rescues and being unable to take off again.

For that reason floatplanes and flying boats weren't supposed to land on the open sea but in bays and so on.

[lucklucky]

Here is it Balbo in US

 

 

Cant Z 506 could operate in Beaufort state 5

[shep854]

 

Even in the Pacific, sea states were often too rough for routine operations. There are numerous accounts of aircraft landing to affect rescues and being unable to take off again.

For that reason floatplanes and flying boats weren't supposed to land on the open sea but in bays and so on.

Which goes back to the original question about using the ship-borne floatplanes for ASW in the Mid-Atlantic Gap. Edited January 11, 2020 by shep854

[BansheeOne]

Cant Z 506 could operate in Beaufort state 5

 

The Z.511, holding the title of biggest floatplane ever, reportedly also handled very well in rough seastates during trials. Pity the Italian surrender cut its development short, like so many other interesting stuff's.

 

 

 

Big amphibians in current production:

 

AVIC AG600

 

 

Beriev Be-200

 

 

Shin Meiwa US-2

 

[Markus Becker]

 

Float Planes would have been handy during the early days of the battle of the Atlantic. In the period before widespread use of escort carriers in the Mid Atlantic air gap.

 

Were the seas too heavy in the Mid Atlantic for these aircraft to operate?

 

 

Until December 1942 the only route convoys took was through the North Atlantic.

 

Weather aside aircraft recovery was always a problem, mainly because the ship had to stop. That would have made it a sitting duck and even if nothing fatal happened it would have to catch up to the rest of the convoy. So this valuable but dangerous role would have required fast merchant ships. And still calm seas, nothing you get in the North Atlantic in the winter.

[Nobu]

Excellent video of Balbo's crossing, by the way, better than anything else that I have seen (mostly newsreel based).

 

The Albatros floatplane looks quintessentially German in various ways.