Israeli Afvs

[Mighty_Zuk]

19 hours ago, alanch90 said:

Thought it was coming much sooner.

Previously scheduled for 2027 but all ground vehicle programs got a 2 year delay due to government dysfunction and lack of state budget.

Some of the Carmel technologies will appear on existing combat vehicles though.

[Mighty_Zuk]

I recently connected a few dots, I wonder if they really connect, and maybe a few questions along the way.

So there was the anti-KE thread I opened a while back with a Rafael solution. The pics:

1. 4 plates on a mount, with some sealing on the side.

2. Only 2 plates on a mount, seemingly no sealing, very minor damage to the module.

3. The 4 plate module, with the sealing and 2 shots in, mostly intact but there is serious deformation leaving gaps.

4. The 4 plate module before impact, showing the side sealing design is true to the simulations.

 

Now let's look at the armor of the Merkava 4A, i.e the old variant:

I assume the slots are for a controlled release of energy to prevent excess deformation of the armor and to, sort of, create a desired balance between per-shot performance, and multi-shot capability. 

If so, and correct me if I'm wrong, this seems like the Merkava 4A's armor is highly volatile (perhaps not necessarily ERA but some NxRA), albeit meant to release lower amounts of energy judging by the slots.

In this pic from 2006 we see a Merkava 4A with first generation of armor, showing significant armor deformation after taking hits.

Then, a few years later, IDF officials said they were working on a new and improved armor that would reduce post-shot vulnerabilities, or in other words just increase multi-shot capability.

Said armor was implemented in the Merkava 4B around 2011-2012, and was continued with the Mark 4M.

In these pics, however, we see no slots:

Could it be that the energy is just vented in some other more elegant way? Or perhaps increased structural integrity to allow plates be maximally volatile?

In one ground warfare conference, several officials, including very high ranking ones, strangely specified not the need for high protection as they generally do, but specifically referred to "continuous semi-reactive armor", possibly referring to Rafael's innovations in NxRA which is claimed to get out of the curve of previous types of armor like NERA, ERA, and SLERA.

So, is it possible that like many previous Rafael products (first become operational and then advertise), some form of the Rafael 'Armor Shield KE' / ASPRO-KE has already been installed on Merkava tanks? How likely is it, given the above photos?

[Wiedzmin]

 

Mk3 welded turret

[Wiedzmin]

 

 

First attempt on making mk 1 a d 2 armour scheme, value of plates maybe off by 5-10mm, but doubt that more than this.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Wiedzmin

[Rick]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:07 PM, Wiedzmin said:

 

Mk3 welded turret

An Israeli "crunchy" under the turret?

[Rick]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:47 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

I recently connected a few dots, I wonder if they really connect, and maybe a few questions along the way.

So there was the anti-KE thread I opened a while back with a Rafael solution. The pics:

1. 4 plates on a mount, with some sealing on the side.

2. Only 2 plates on a mount, seemingly no sealing, very minor damage to the module.

3. The 4 plate module, with the sealing and 2 shots in, mostly intact but there is serious deformation leaving gaps.

4. The 4 plate module before impact, showing the side sealing design is true to the simulations.

 

Now let's look at the armor of the Merkava 4A, i.e the old variant:

I assume the slots are for a controlled release of energy to prevent excess deformation of the armor and to, sort of, create a desired balance between per-shot performance, and multi-shot capability. 

If so, and correct me if I'm wrong, this seems like the Merkava 4A's armor is highly volatile (perhaps not necessarily ERA but some NxRA), albeit meant to release lower amounts of energy judging by the slots.

In this pic from 2006 we see a Merkava 4A with first generation of armor, showing significant armor deformation after taking hits.

Then, a few years later, IDF officials said they were working on a new and improved armor that would reduce post-shot vulnerabilities, or in other words just increase multi-shot capability.

Said armor was implemented in the Merkava 4B around 2011-2012, and was continued with the Mark 4M.

In these pics, however, we see no slots:

Could it be that the energy is just vented in some other more elegant way? Or perhaps increased structural integrity to allow plates be maximally volatile?

In one ground warfare conference, several officials, including very high ranking ones, strangely specified not the need for high protection as they generally do, but specifically referred to "continuous semi-reactive armor", possibly referring to Rafael's innovations in NxRA which is claimed to get out of the curve of previous types of armor like NERA, ERA, and SLERA.

So, is it possible that like many previous Rafael products (first become operational and then advertise), some form of the Rafael 'Armor Shield KE' / ASPRO-KE has already been installed on Merkava tanks? How likely is it, given the above photos?

One photo answered my past question on how the engine is removed from this tank.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Elbit Sigma mounted on 10x10 truck scores 2nd customer in a $106 million contract:

 

The only other 10x10 based artillery is Rheinmetall's, which features an L60 gun, which implies the Sigma has a similar growth plan.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Model of the Ro'em (brand name Sigma) for the IDF:

Notice it mounts the L52 gun, but the platform is built for a larger gun to be mounted in the future.

[futon]

Larger caliber for just long range heavy bunker busting?

[Mighty_Zuk]

Just now, futon said:

Larger caliber for just long range heavy bunker busting?

Still 155mm, just longer to get better reach. Germany is working on an L60, the US is working on an L58. When one of them becomes the standard and everyone follows suit, Israel will have the Ro'em to mount it on, with only minimal modifications.

[Wiedzmin]

Merkava Mk.4 mantlet armor module

 

 

[Wiedzmin]

 

Mk.4 turret roof 

[Wiedzmin]

https://images.hollis.harvard.edu/primo-explore/viewcomponent/L/HVD_VIAJPCDISUN18722?vid=HVD_IMAGES&imageId=urn-3:FHCL.JUD:26146107&adaptor=

 

a lot of Mk1 assembly photos

 

 

outer turret plate

 

[Wiedzmin]

 

brazilians at merkava factory 

[Mighty_Zuk]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:03 PM, Wiedzmin said:

 

brazilians at merkava factory 

Do we know the date of this photo?

[Mighty_Zuk]

We've seen odd weight figures thrown, particularly 80 tons, but no explanation and seemingly from unreliable sources, like crewmen themselves who only get acquainted with some figures very roughly.

Now an Israeli news site publishes a story of Sherman vets looking at today's Merkavas, and the narrator specifies an 82 ton weight. This even far exceeds the Challenger 2.

Original figures for the Mark 4 were 65 tons, and externally visible modifications are minor - new sights, an APS, etc. 

Over the years the invisible aspects that were improved are in the field of armor protection. Side skirts were changed. Turret armor we've also seen changing at least once. 

It is certainly possible this drastic increase in weight is the result of armor modifications alone. It is odd, however, the IDF does not attempt to compensate this with a mobility upgrade.

https://m.ynet.co.il/articles/ryceiszyc

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mighty_Zuk

[alejandro_]

Interview with a former Merkava tanker:

http://alejandro-8en.blogspot.com/2022/03/a-few-weeks-ago-former-merkava-tanker.html

[TrustMe]

A good read, thanks Alejandro.

[lucklucky]

Indeed. Thanks

Edited March 27, 2022 by lucklucky

[Wiedzmin]

Mk3 turrets, left with cast parts, right welded from plates

 

mk1-2 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Wiedzmin

[Stefan Kotsch]

What does this mean: "area stabilization - no point stabilisation (video tracking)"? Is it about the lack of autotracking?

[alejandro_]

11 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

What does this mean: "area stabilization - no point stabilisation (video tracking)"? Is it about the lack of autotracking?

Yes, that was what I understood.

[methos]

Are you sure that it is about video tracking and not about dynamic lead?

[alejandro_]

23 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

What does this mean: "area stabilization - no point stabilisation (video tracking)"? Is it about the lack of autotracking?

I asked him to clarify:

a) Area stabilization is when the gun remains in the same direction and elevation while the hull is moving. So a tank can manoeuvre while keeping his gun pointed to the target area.

b) Point track stabilization is when the gunner "locks" a target. It's a video track - the system identify the "pixels" that are lock and track them. This is of course a much better stabilization since wherever you go your gun is locked on and ready to fire. But if you loose sight of the target for more than a given time the stabilization will switch to area track until it sees the target again.

[Stefan Kotsch]

Thank you for the information. So it's actually about autotracking. But that is only a functional addition to area stabilization (the standard weapon stabilization). So every army has its own confusing terms, behind which the same thing is often hidden. Of course, autotracking is not a standalone/autonomous method of weapon stabilization. keine autonome methode

Edited March 29, 2022 by Stefan Kotsch