Israeli Afvs

[Mighty_Zuk]

IDF to add a 4th company to every armored battalion.

This is reportedly because of allocation difficulties with the current combat teams setup.

Pilot program started with the 188th several months ago.

Beyond that they're not really giving any specifics.

https://www.idf.il/250919

[alanch90]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

IDF to add a 4th company to every armored battalion.

This is reportedly because of allocation difficulties with the current combat teams setup.

Pilot program started with the 188th several months ago.

Beyond that they're not really giving any specifics.

https://www.idf.il/250919

And where are they getting the extra tanks from? Unless they are splitting the 3rd batallion of every brigade.

BTW I just did the math and IDF lost a total of 94 tank crewmen since Oct 7th, 77 of which since the start of the Gaza ground operation. Though estimating total number of tanks targeted/damaged/destroyed from this is extremely difficult.

Edited November 24, 2024 by alanch90

[Mighty_Zuk]

27 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

And where are they getting the extra tanks from? Unless they are splitting the 3rd batallion of every brigade

No idea. But postponing old tanks' decommissioning sure helps play around with the existing pool. 

Having the pilot done in only 1 battalion right now could also coincide with the regular production which currently stands at one battalion's worth of tanks per year. 

[Rick]

Do Israeli reserve units 'bring up to authorized strength" active duty formations?

[alanch90]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Do Israeli reserve units 'bring up to authorized strength" active duty formations?

Well in IDF´s official KIA count there are reservists or members of school/training units that were transferred to active duty units to fill holes.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Do Israeli reserve units 'bring up to authorized strength" active duty formations?

Reservists and active duty are occasionally mixed in the same units. A battalion in an active unit could contain reserve elements that are not needed in peace time. For example a tank battalion containing multiple active tank companies, and some reserve armored infantry companies and reinforced HQ.

 

But when it comes to tanks, they keep the same standard across a brigade. So I doubt you'll see a Mark 3 in a Mark 4A brigade, or a Mark 4A in a Mark 4M brigade.

The only brigade that mixes is the 460th instructional brigade.

Edited November 24, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[alanch90]

Official IDF data regarding the ratio of damaged and repaired AFVs including tanks. In other words, about 10 percent of the Merkavas that were damaged by projectiles or mines are deemed non recoverable. From public IDF data on KIAs, I estimate about 15 Merkavas (among these, about 6 Merkava 4Ms) might have been seriously damaged or destroyed, resulting in the death of 2 or more crewmen. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, alanch90 said:

Official IDF data regarding the ratio of damaged and repaired AFVs including tanks. In other words, about 10 percent of the Merkavas that were damaged by projectiles or mines are deemed non recoverable.

Where did you get 10% non-recoverable?

[alanch90]

6 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Where did you get 10% non-recoverable?

Well if 90 percent have been repaired and returned, then the other 10 percent have not been repairable.

Source is Emanuel Fabian, military correspondent of Times of Israel, by the way.

https://x.com/manniefabian/status/1861062308815863951

Edited November 25, 2024 by alanch90

[Mighty_Zuk]

28 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

Well if 90 percent have been repaired and returned, then the other 10 percent have not been repairable.

Source is Emanuel Fabian, military correspondent of Times of Israel, by the way.

https://x.com/manniefabian/status/1861062308815863951

You're conflating repaired with repairable.

In the paragraph just below it he says average repair times are 20 days, and that other AFVs that took serious damage require longer repairs.

Some damage requires pulling back to the production center, and output fluctuates with their work load. They're still pumping out new tanks in the middle of this.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[alanch90]

4 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

You're conflating repaired with repairable.

In the paragraph just below it he says average repair times are 20 days, and that other AFVs that took serious damage require longer repairs.

 

Fair point though since the war is not over all data is provisional. Although even if by the end of the war only 10 percent of all damaged vehicles are deemed irrecoverable (after all they´ve been through) its still an astoundingly good result.

The most important data point I´m interested would be the average crewman casualty per targeted/damaged tank. Thats the best metric to asses the evolution of IDF´s tank capabilities over time.

Edited November 25, 2024 by alanch90

[urbanoid]

JLTVs (wheeled deathtraps™) to replace M113s

https://x.com/loxlikelox/status/1861063462010372352

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, alanch90 said:

The most important data point I´m interested would be the average crewman casualty per targeted/damaged tank. Thats the best metric to asses the evolution of IDF´s tank capabilities over time.

I agree. Tanks are easier to replace than crews.

2 hours ago, urbanoid said:

JLTVs (wheeled deathtraps™) to replace M113s

These are in use for over a year by the IDF. They seem to like it. Saw one on the road today. Still green. Not sure if they're being repainted here.

When the IDF thinks about adding some stuff to a maneuvering force, it has to choose between the obsolete M113, old HMMWVs, very light armored vehicles, or heavy ones like Eitan and Namer.

The JLTV will reintroduce some much needed flexibility to add more capabilities at the lower levels without sacrificing offroad mobility, payload, and protection.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[Mighty_Zuk]

That's why I'll always consider Trophy at least one step ahead of Iron Fist. As long as Iron Fist doesn't feature a shield, it's much less relevant at least in an urban setting.

https://x.com/plovejet/status/1861174904890012115

We're in the next phase of APS deployment - layering. I'm assuming current APS types are pretty stagnant in their core capabilities and will need upper layers to protect from less immediate threats. But if Iron Fist and other less mature competitors don't deliver at least on component survivability, then Trophy will continue to dominate.

 

Not really sure what I'm looking at here. Goggles and radio pack indicate a drone. But handling the stick could indicate a system native to the tank's systems. Iron Vision, as far as I'm aware, doesn't look like that and is integrated with a helmet, and its main point is to keep the commander inside the tank with hatches closed.

I assume this is an operational test to integrate some drone to a tank. Pic taken in Lebanon.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[alanch90]

On 11/26/2024 at 4:40 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

That's why I'll always consider Trophy at least one step ahead of Iron Fist. As long as Iron Fist doesn't feature a shield, it's much less relevant at least in an urban setting.

https://x.com/plovejet/status/1861174904890012115

We're in the next phase of APS deployment - layering. I'm assuming current APS types are pretty stagnant in their core capabilities and will need upper layers to protect from less immediate threats. But if Iron Fist and other less mature competitors don't deliver at least on component survivability, then Trophy will continue to dominate.

Strange thy didn´t just target the radars, those can´t be protected. 

If the Merkava platform is going to see further development and the requirements for its APS capabilities get more demanding I would adopt an Iron Fist variant to deal with longer ranged threats (ATGMs, APFSDS) and a secondary distributed APS kinda like StrikeShield for ultra quick short range threat reaction.

I hope someday we get some clarity on Trophy performance in war. The multiple destroyed or heavily damaged Merkava 4Ms during Oct 7th pose a lot of questions.

Edited December 3, 2024 by alanch90

[Mighty_Zuk]

38 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

If the Merkava platform is going to see further development and the requirements for its APS capabilities get more demanding I would adopt an Iron Fist variant to deal with longer ranged threats (ATGMs, APFSDS) and a secondary distributed APS kinda like StrikeShield for ultra quick short range threat reaction.

RCWS at least are seen as a clear path for APS development. 

39 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

I hope someday we get some clarity on Trophy performance in war. The multiple destroyed or heavily damaged Merkava 4Ms during Oct 7th pose a lot of questions.

Yes but probably not something relevant to the Trophy.

Trophy can only deal with RPGs, ATGMs, and recently drones. It cannot deal with sticky charges, IEDs, or RPGs fired from very close range.

The only 2 visually confirmed cases of a destroyed Merkava tank in or around Gaza, are caused by IEDs or manually placed explosives.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Least aesthetic Merkava 4M

[alanch90]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Least aesthetic Merkava 4M

Never seen the flyer plates on the UFP and fender modules this clearly before

[Mighty_Zuk]

Merkava 4 simulator:

 

 

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Merkava 4 simulator:

 

 

I wonder how much time they actually get in it?

Back in the day when I was making my way through Fort Sam Houston the Army had some pretty advanced simulators for medics that simulated basically... everything.  Problem was you had several hundred medics graduating every few weeks and only a handful of sims.  Only a fraction got to use them and even then only for a few minutes.

[Mighty_Zuk]

21 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

I wonder how much time they actually get in it?

Back in the day when I was making my way through Fort Sam Houston the Army had some pretty advanced simulators for medics that simulated basically... everything.  Problem was you had several hundred medics graduating every few weeks and only a handful of sims.  Only a fraction got to use them and even then only for a few minutes.

Simulators generally are one thing where advancement is still pretty fast, because not long ago they were all quite lame and so not a whole lot of them were around. Now you have to buy modern ones AND in numbers. This is a dilemma for the acquisition guys because it's not really logical to invest a lot of money on infrastructure that'll get replaced pretty quickly.

The IDF also has the issue of where to put it. It's still in the process of building large instructional bases in the Negev. 
I'd say that right now these simulators may not be used by every crew, or maybe they'll just be used by certain crews to test certain stuff. But I do think that in 10 years from now these things will be really common and in much wider use, as the tech is simplified. If you want to build a simulator in 2024 you only really need to get a license to use an existing sim virtual environment from a company like Bohemia Interactive which made Arma, get a few models done, prepare a few scenarios - all very cheap. Get a workshop to make a couple dozen mechanical environments simulating the insides of a tank, also fairly cheap, and the cheapest TV screens you can get. 

The IDF is now really just starting to get momentum for proper simulators.

[Stuart Galbraith]

So, perhaps this isnt the right place, but I thought I would ask. This suggests that the IDF is now employing all female tank crews on the front line? Despite having rejected it after a successful trial?

https://www.dailylondonreporter.co.uk/lionesses-of-the-desert-inside-israels-all-female-tank-unit-taking-on-hamas-terrorists-and-led-by-british-captain-20-who-says-her-role-is-a-dream-come-true/

‘I looked many in the eye. They saw me, and they saw I was a woman. Put it this way, they won’t be getting 72 virgins because they were taken out by a woman.’

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So, perhaps this isnt the right place, but I thought I would ask. This suggests that the IDF is now employing all female tank crews on the front line? Despite having rejected it after a successful trial?

https://www.dailylondonreporter.co.uk/lionesses-of-the-desert-inside-israels-all-female-tank-unit-taking-on-hamas-terrorists-and-led-by-british-captain-20-who-says-her-role-is-a-dream-come-true/

‘I looked many in the eye. They saw me, and they saw I was a woman. Put it this way, they won’t be getting 72 virgins because they were taken out by a woman.’

 

They were involved in the defense of the Gaza envelope on October 7th. They're regularly stationed along the Egyptian border as a territorial unit tasked primarily with monitoring for breaches and dealing with smuggling operations in the day to day. On October 7th they received reports of the situation and rushed to the Gaza envelope area, where they participated in combat and received commendations for their performance.

They've passed trials and are actively serving in the armored corps, but according to the army they're not qualified for maneuver warfare. So they're essentially a lower tier fighting force. That is because they're uniquely part of a territorial unit, who do not receive neither the training nor tools to take part in maneuver warfare.

Just a couple days ago their battalion was sent to Gaza, but according to the IDF the battalion was split, and the female tank company was left out of Gaza.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

They were involved in the defense of the Gaza envelope on October 7th. They're regularly stationed along the Egyptian border as a territorial unit tasked primarily with monitoring for breaches and dealing with smuggling operations in the day to day. On October 7th they received reports of the situation and rushed to the Gaza envelope area, where they participated in combat and received commendations for their performance.

They've passed trials and are actively serving in the armored corps, but according to the army they're not qualified for maneuver warfare. So they're essentially a lower tier fighting force. That is because they're uniquely part of a territorial unit, who do not receive neither the training nor tools to take part in maneuver warfare.

Just a couple days ago their battalion was sent to Gaza, but according to the IDF the battalion was split, and the female tank company was left out of Gaza.

 

Still sounds a good showing, even if the IDF command are uneasy about it.

[methos]

On 12/3/2024 at 10:17 PM, alanch90 said:

Never seen the flyer plates on the UFP and fender modules this clearly before

There are no flyer plates in this picture.