Israeli Afvs

[Bichri001]

22 hours ago, bojan said:

Either something HE or HEAT jet did not form properly.

I guess quality control isn't a priority during the Al-Yassin 105 production process.

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

New Lahav pics dropped. Reportedly in use since early days of the war.

Users report significant quality of life improvements over the old M270, including some opportunities granted by using a wheeled chassis, particularly since Israel's internal logistics rely on a system of highways with time constants of hours.

It is encouraging that the IDF chose to increase its reliance on the HEMTT for logistical as well as combat purposes. It will reduce life cycle costs and ease both material and training logistics.

https://www.mako.co.il/pzm-soldiers/Article-c6ec2d7f9745d81027.htm

[urbanoid]

Those are 122 mm tubes?

[Mighty_Zuk]

23 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Those are 122 mm tubes?

Yes. The IDF uses Elbit's AccuLar 122mm rockets.

https://elbitsystems.com/media/elbit-systems-land-rocket-artillery-catalog.pdf

There is also a 160mm version but no evidence so far of the IDF using it. 

It is said in the article that the AccuLar is to be replaced (or supplemented?) with what is likely Rafael's EPIK.

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/EPIK.pdf

Difference between the two is that AccuLar is GPS guided and EPIK is optically guided.

 

Edited February 5, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[urbanoid]

Ah, so like the KimchiMars that we ordered. The launcher can fire 130/230/239/400/600 mm rockets, we'll be integrating 122s, since we already produce them. 

[bojan]

If you go with lower caliber rocket arty 122mm is a gold standard, because economy of numbers works in you favor, as it can always be exported, unlike proprietary calibers. One of the biggest fuckups in the Yugoslav development of the rocket artillery was choosing 128mm caliber instead of 122mm. Yes, it did offer better performances, but in the end rockets ended costing way more than 122mm (that local companies also made for export).

[Mighty_Zuk]

Trippy

 

[Strannik]

Almas (Iranian copy of Spike-MR) vs Trophy equipped Mk4

 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, Strannik said:

Almas (Iranian copy of Spike-MR) vs Trophy equipped Mk4

 

 

According to a defense reporter, the missile did not penetrate, and there were no casualties in the incident.

Being parked, Trophy is very unlikely to have been activated, and combined with the fact that the missile had likely hit a weakspot in the turret armor, it's most likely the warhead failed to initiate.

[alanch90]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:09 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

New Lahav pics dropped. Reportedly in use since early days of the war.

Users report significant quality of life improvements over the old M270, including some opportunities granted by using a wheeled chassis, particularly since Israel's internal logistics rely on a system of highways with time constants of hours.

It is encouraging that the IDF chose to increase its reliance on the HEMTT for logistical as well as combat purposes. It will reduce life cycle costs and ease both material and training logistics.

https://www.mako.co.il/pzm-soldiers/Article-c6ec2d7f9745d81027.htm

Internationaly they are marketing this as PULS. Didn´t know they wanted to use it domestically. Nevertheless, unless I´m wrong this isn´t compatible with M270 ammunition.

[Mighty_Zuk]

15 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

Internationaly they are marketing this as PULS. Didn´t know they wanted to use it domestically. Nevertheless, unless I´m wrong this isn´t compatible with M270 ammunition.

The M270 was improved to be backwards compatible with common 122mm, but yeah I don't know if the Lahav is necessarily using 227mm rockets right now. It's not really an issue though. If there's a need for them, the IDF can just budget the integration as with any munition. But for now there's no need while the M270 aren't retired, and perhaps they hope someone else will buy the integration work.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Hoping for a new paint job:

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

Merkava 3 program was initially supposed to put a Mark 2 turret with a 120mm on a new chassis. As you can see, the chassis still belongs to a Mark 2, so I assume the early prototyping stages involved several tanks.

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[Marsh]

On 2/21/2024 at 7:22 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

Merkava 3 program was initially supposed to put a Mark 2 turret with a 120mm on a new chassis. As you can see, the chassis still belongs to a Mark 2, so I assume the early prototyping stages involved several tanks.

There is another, more likely possibility. The Merkava 2 was designed from the onset to eventually upgrade to 120mm cannon. In the event, despite initial work having been done, a decision was made to drop the gun upgrade. It was determined that the Merkava 2, even with a new gun and FCS, would still lack modern, modular  armour. To upgrade the armour to an acceptable level, it would require a beefing up of the powerpack and running gear to compensate for the weight. All too costly and intensive for a tank which was becoming obsolescent. MANTAK decided it made more sense just to introduce the 120 mm with the Merkava 3. As a stopgap the LAHAT gun launched missile was developed to give the Merkava 2 greater lethality, however, as far as I know never saw IDF service. 

I suspect the early Merkava 2 pictured  was used a test rig for mounting the 120mm on the Merkava 2, not as a test rig for the Merkava 3 programme itself.

The above comes from conversation with the late General Tal in Israel and IMI representatives at Armoured Vehicle forums in London

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Marsh

[Stuart Galbraith]

The IDF long wanted to transition to a 120mm. I remember Bob Griffin telling me he found some documents in the National Archive claiming the IDF planned to put British L11's in the Centurion, when they started getting Chieftains. Another thing we screwed up.

[Mighty_Zuk]

On 2/23/2024 at 2:35 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

The IDF long wanted to transition to a 120mm. I remember Bob Griffin telling me he found some documents in the National Archive claiming the IDF planned to put British L11's in the Centurion, when they started getting Chieftains. Another thing we screwed up.

Not just 120mm. There were also plans for 110mm at some point. The IDF naturally wanted more firepower, protection, and mobility to get the edge when it wasn't all that clear whether it would ever have technological superiority, especially when getting these factors was as straightforward as a bigger gun or bigger engine.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Probably a Merkava 3 providing mortar fire support to the 98th division in Gaza:

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:40 PM, Mighty_Zuk said:

Not just 120mm. There were also plans for 110mm at some point. The IDF naturally wanted more firepower, protection, and mobility to get the edge when it wasn't all that clear whether it would ever have technological superiority, especially when getting these factors was as straightforward as a bigger gun or bigger engine.

That's interesting, presumably  we were offering  access to our 110mm project. Jesus we really shot ourselves in the foot.

[Mighty_Zuk]

M113 in UGV configuration spotted in Gaza in one of Hamas's videos. It was likely destroyed, but that's kinda the point of cheap UGVs. Plenty of M113s in storage.

[Colin]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:35 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

The IDF long wanted to transition to a 120mm. I remember Bob Griffin telling me he found some documents in the National Archive claiming the IDF planned to put British L11's in the Centurion, when they started getting Chieftains. Another thing we screwed up.

Would a Chieftain turret fit a Centurion?

[Mighty_Zuk]

Tank combat footage compilation from Gaza:

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

Interesting article by chief of military research in the IDF's Dado center think-tank.

https://www.maarachot.idf.il/28876

There he asserts the IDF needs to rethink the current composition of the tank platoon. The IDF currently has 2 tanks per platoon. The primary reasons are operation in tight urban areas where more than that is difficult to maneuver and coordinate, as well as enhanced mobility and situational awareness afforded by new technologies, and finally a lack of qualified officers and NCOs (one less tank per company). 

He proposes a 5 vehicle platoon, consisting of:

1. 2x Fire vehicles - conventional tanks.

2. 2x Reinforcement platforms - HIFVs with armored infantry tasked solely with protecting the vehicles.

3. 1x Command & indirect fire vehicle - incorporates some unique elements such as mortar, UAS, AT/AP munitions etc. Shall include C2 and comms relay capabilities, and particularly connectivity with other elements such as aerial assets and artillery.

He also proposes to expand the good old triangle into a pentagon that includes:

• Mobility.
• Protection.
• Close range firepower.
• Long range firepower.
• Sensory and connectivity.

The company shall be organized differently as well. It will have 3 platoons as described above, a self propelled mortar platoon, and a company commander's command tank. Not every vehicle will carry all equipment previously considered standard for the sake of uniformity, so more expensive platforms will be offset in cost by the reduction of equipment in others. Every vehicle will contribute something more unique, bringing AFVs somewhat closer to infantry where every infantryman has some sort of specialization or unique role.

The old crew roles - driver, loader, gunner, and TC are to be replaced by other more up to date roles such as light gunner, heavy gunner, BMC operator, sensor and drone operator, mortarist etc (duplications possible of course). The command chain will similarly have to adapt to this change as the burden on each platoon and company commander is now greater.

This brings us to the topic of manpower. If the IDF struggled to maintain 3 tank platoons due to manpower issues, how will it now operate much larger frameworks? There is a political element to it, but the IDF may soon face an influx of new conscripts as we are nearing resolution of the Ultra Orthodox draft dodging issue. The writer of course makes no mention of this, and has written his article before certain political developments.

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

In an investors' conference, Elbit details new factory that will begin operation in 2024. It will focus largely on production of munitions but also support production of platforms for the IDF and foreign customers.

Plans for the factory were announced several years ago and it seems we're nearing completion.

Additionally, Elbit's CEO said the IDF will acquire 144 Ro'em howitzers, with first units becoming operation

[Mighty_Zuk]

Plasan EX11 light armored vehicles (modified Stormer) previously purchased for J&S now seen in desert paint (J&S units use grey), used by reservist paratroopers in what seems to be Gaza.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 3/22/2024 at 12:48 AM, Colin said:

Would a Chieftain turret fit a Centurion?

Probably not. My impression was they were going to just retrofit the L11 in the centurion turret. Although I suppose conceivably the Action X turret might have been envisaged, Im not sure.