Israeli Afvs

[Mighty_Zuk]

IDF is currently forming a new armor battalion based on Merkava 3 tanks that were destined to be scrapped. This is a welcome move, the IDF is at a critical point as it downsizes significantly over the years. At the moment, it has less than 1,000 tanks across the active and reserve units.

 

[Sovngard]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:52 AM, Wiedzmin said:

Some strange additions on hull sides

 

To prevent to attach sticky explosive charges to the side skirts.

[lucklucky]

New advanced tech for Merkava

https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/17q3hyc/merkava_gender_reveal/

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

11 hours ago, Sovngard said:

 

To prevent to attach sticky explosive charges to the side skirts.

Fact or assumption?

[bojan]

If it was for that purpose, placement with gaps as shown is far from ideal. But so far that is only logical assumption. OTOH, placing sticky charges on skirts instead of horizontal parts of tank is pretty stupid.

[Marsh]

The IDF's training for 20 years has been hollowed out. Yet, the ingenuity of the engineers remains intact. I suspect the purpose and the implementation is not stupid.

[methos]

5 hours ago, bojan said:

If it was for that purpose, placement with gaps as shown is far from ideal.

There are gaps between the foam panels, but there is still an extra material behind the foam panel that seems to have very little gaps.

 

[bojan]

4 hours ago, Marsh said:

...I suspect the purpose and the implementation is not stupid.

Depending on who did it. First "roofs" we have seen on Merks seem to have proper spacing to work as slat armor vs RPG warheads, but we have also seen ones that do not, made by crews who did it probably on their own. Like in Russia and Ukraine, people in tank business generally know what they are doing (despite making some questionable choices here and there), crews OTOH, you might as well just roll a dice, you might get anything from a good solution to a total cargo cult item.

[Wiedzmin]

 

more rubber on sides

[Mighty_Zuk]

Commercial car cameras installed on Israeli AFVs as a civilian initiative approved by the army. 

Each AFV set costs about ~$350.

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

More of these panels, plus some sandbags.

Might I suggest it has something to do with lowering hazard of explosive panels?

[bojan]

Rubber foam that thin? No way it has any noticeable effect.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Slavic muppet analyzes Merkava 4 in Gaza:

 

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Slavic muppet analyzes Merkava 4 in Gaza:

Sounds way more reasonable than what's coming from most other non-muppet "TV experts".

[Mighty_Zuk]

28 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Sounds way more reasonable than what's coming from most other non-muppet "TV experts".

I, too, wish to assassinate RedEffect.

[bojan]

Maybe take a chill pill instead, Jewish muppet?

Redeffect is... meh. His vids are pretty OK in technical specs, there are no glaring errors in that part. But other than that they are mostly orientated toward lower end of knowledge spectrum.

 

[Ssnake]

I'd rather have something free of glaring errors that's kept digestible for Joe Schmoe who isn't a tank nerd than the flood of the usual bullshit that's being released every day which is aimed at the same audience, but making them dumber with every minute that they don't switch off the TV.

[bojan]

I agree. Hence, while RedEffect is not interesting for me it is overall OK, especially compared to all other youtube/twatter junk.

Blinkov's battleground however goes too often into tactical/operational analysis where their lack of knowledge (two guys from Croatia that never even served in the army and have no clue about even basic tactical movements) shows.

Edited November 17, 2023 by bojan

[Mighty_Zuk]

Rhino (Oshkosh) and Ofek (Merkava) command vehicles seen side by side.

 

I love Israeli MSM. They know I'm much more interested in seeing tanks and big explosions than soldiers talking. They also don't call everything a "tank".

Edited November 17, 2023 by Mighty_Zuk

[Mighty_Zuk]

Report claims Israel "cancelled Merkava export programs". 

The report claims this decision was made before the war and turned out to be correct. Previous reports said Israel plans to sell both Merkava 2 and Merkava 3 types to at least 2 countries but the new report does not state which of these was cancelled or whether it was both. 

IDF is currently forming at least a new armored battalion and may form more in the future. However aside from prototypes of Ofek command vehicle, I'm not aware of any Merkava 2 usage by the IDF. All were withdrawn from reserve service and new Merkava variants were built on Merkava 3 hulls.

 

The report also states the IDF received "85 new AFVs including Merkavas, Eitans, and Namers". It is unclear how many of these are the mentioned AFVs or whether they include some lighter ones like the Panther or more specialized ones like the D9.

IDF's production of AFVs is said to be about 100 per year, of which Merkava and Namer account for 30 each. Eitan likely also 30, and another 10 might be either rounded number or special variants like Ofek, Pereg, CEVs, ARVs etc etc.

Regardless, 85 new vehicles in a month and a half is pretty significant.

 

The report also says the IDF ordered "tens" new D9s, and some of the D9s are currently undergoing a refitting process to the Panda standard, which is an autonomous and semi-autonomous version of the manned D9.

https://m.calcalist.co.il/Article.aspx?guid=sj11q00i8nt

Edited November 21, 2023 by Mighty_Zuk

[alejandro_]

 

4 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Report claims Israel "cancelled Merkava export programs". 

The report claims this decision was made before the war and turned out to be correct. Previous reports said Israel plans to sell both Merkava 2 and Merkava 3 types to at least 2 countries but the new report does not state which of these was cancelled or whether it was both. 

https://m.calcalist.co.il/Article.aspx?guid=sj11q00i8nt

Thank you, to offer more perspective, export deal was for +200 tanks (Mk2 and 3). No countries were named but Cyprus and Morocco were mentioned in social media/discussions; these countries would sell/export Soviet tanks and acquire Merkavas in exchange.

Before the war Mk IIIs were used until October 2020 (188 Brigade). Israel had acquired 150 Mk IVs with deliveries between 2019 and 2024 to replace them. By 2024, it was expected to have 4 active brigades with Mk IV and 5 in reserves (2 with Mk IV and 5 with Mk III). 

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/skugq500p2

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

Side skirt armor module of Merkava 4 and Namer showing its NERA/NxRA.

 

[alanch90]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:33 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

The report claims this decision was made before the war and turned out to be correct. Previous reports said Israel plans to sell both Merkava 2 and Merkava 3 types to at least 2 countries but the new report does not state which of these was cancelled or whether it was both. 

IDF is currently forming at least a new armored battalion and may form more in the future. However aside from prototypes of Ofek command vehicle, I'm not aware of any Merkava 2 usage by the IDF. All were withdrawn from reserve service and new Merkava variants were built on Merkava 3 hulls.

Do you happen to know if Barak tanks will be newly built or mostly upgraded Merkava 4? Because if its the latter, theres going to be a good number of Merk 4 FCS components lying around collecting dust. Perhaps IDF should explore the option of transplanting them to reserve Merkava 3 (and updating its armor modules as well). In light of the experience of Oct 7th, the Barak upgrade seems to me "not enough", at the very least the APS needs some changes to address the super short range engagement and the drone threat and the tank should get added an RCWS. 
On the other hand, the turreted Namer IFV should be revived for the active units while Merkava 2 hulls can be converted to Namer-like APCs/IFVs for the reserve ones.

 

Perhaps an organizational change should take place as well. We´ve seen too many instances of insuficient tank-infantry coordination, perhaps it comes down to infantry and tanks belonging to entirely separated brigades (but forming ad-hoc mixed combat teams). Pretty much every other maneuver capable army in the world has organic infantry for tank units and viceversa, perhaps IDF should do the same, switching from brigades with 3 single arm battalions to a 2:1 composition. This can be done by having Nahal, Givati and Golani each donating a single infantry battalion to 188th, 7th and 401st and receiving from them a single tank battalion in return and the same for the reserves. This way, the tank units would have organic infantry riding on Namers and infantry units could use mainly Eitan APCs.

Edited November 25, 2023 by alanch90

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

Do you happen to know if Barak tanks will be newly built or mostly upgraded Merkava 4?

Until now, at least for the Merkava 4 variants, all variants are new-builds. 4A, 4B, 4M, and 4M-400, all exist today in the same numbers they were manufactured. The IDF also produces 30 new MBTs annually, and that's exactly the rate of modernization. So it is highly likely Barak MBTs, like its predecessors, are all new builds.

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

In light of the experience of Oct 7th, the Barak upgrade seems to me "not enough", at the very least the APS needs some changes to address the super short range engagement and the drone threat and the tank should get added an RCWS. 

There are indications that there will be an RCWS for the Barak. I agree that an RCWS is long overdue. Additional options to provide very close protection should be explored.

The current iteration of Trophy has optics which may help reduce reaction time. But there is only so much to where it can be reduced without resorting to highly complex distributed-type APS (e.g. Trophy LV, Iron Curtain, StrikeShield).

Doctrinally, it is possible that for now the IDF prefers infantry deal with drones. I hope this doesn't stick after the war.

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

On the other hand, the turreted Namer IFV should be revived for the active units while Merkava 2 hulls can be converted to Namer-like APCs/IFVs for the reserve ones.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

Perhaps an organizational change should take place as well. We´ve seen too many instances of insuficient tank-infantry coordination

From Hamas videos, yes. But it doesn't mean the actual cooperation is insufficient. 

It's been a month since the ground incursion began. How many such videos exist? 

1 hour ago, alanch90 said:

perhaps it comes down to infantry and tanks belonging to entirely separated brigades (but forming ad-hoc mixed combat teams). Pretty much every other maneuver capable army in the world has organic infantry for tank units and viceversa, perhaps IDF should do the same, switching from brigades with 3 single arm battalions to a 2:1 composition. This can be done by having Nahal, Givati and Golani each donating a single infantry battalion to 188th, 7th and 401st and receiving from them a single tank battalion in return and the same for the reserves. This way, the tank units would have organic infantry riding on Namers and infantry units could use mainly Eitan APCs.

Corp-oriented units only exist for administrative purposes. The IDF already operates in Brigade, Battalion, and Company Combat Teams. Prior to the Gaza war in 2014, these were ad-hoc. Since then they're organized and trained in the same composition as they'd fight in a war.

For example the Golani infantry brigade is mixed with the 7th armored brigade to form the "Golani BCT", itself composed of battalion and company combat teams.

[alanch90]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Until now, at least for the Merkava 4 variants, all variants are new-builds. 4A, 4B, 4M, and 4M-400, all exist today in the same numbers they were manufactured. The IDF also produces 30 new MBTs annually, and that's exactly the rate of modernization. So it is highly likely Barak MBTs, like its predecessors, are all new builds.

Meaning that an entire Bde can be equipped with new tanks over 3 years. If so, there will be a lot of Merkava 4 and 4M freed up for reserve units over the next decade. Even so, there are 8 reserve tank Bdes., 5 of them with Merkava 3. AFAIK, the 847th, which was disbanded recently was equipped with Mk.4 (or wwhere them 4M?), don´t know what happened with these tanks. The 4th ´Kiryati´ has older Mk.4. So, if Barak production will be 3 Bdes, 3 reserve Bdes can switch to Mk4M/"Model 400".

In other words, 10 years from now the tank fleet will be composed of:
- 3 Active Bdes with Barak
- 3 Reserve Bdes with Mk.4M
- 1  Reserve Bde with Mk.4
- 4  Reserve Bdes with Mk.3 (these should get some upgrade though)

These would free up 4 brigades worth of Merkava 3s, which again can be recycled and converted into pseudo Namers or whatever else is needed.

By the way, currently the Namers are part of the tank or infantry brigades? What units will be equiped with Eitan?

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

There are indications that there will be an RCWS for the Barak. 

Yes I´ve seen the concept art. Still, the 3 Baraks we´ve seen don´t have any RCWS (and neither smoke grenades nor the internal mortar). It should have at least 1 RCWS with very high elevation capable to shoot down drones hovering over the tank. But ideally, there should be 2 RCWS: one can be integrated with the new CITV and another one in the back-right of the turret, just back of the TC hatch. Why 2? Because the current Trophy screens are an obstacle to the coverage of a single RCWS. Also 2 RCWS allow all of the turret crew to engage targets coming from various angles, which is critical in ambush situations (again, Oct 7th lessons). This combined with the augmented situational awareness should produce good results.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The current iteration of Trophy has optics which may help reduce reaction time. But there is only so much to where it can be reduced without resorting to highly complex distributed-type APS (e.g. Trophy LV, Iron Curtain, StrikeShield).

There is an absolute minimum reaction time (apart from the system detecting, processing and calculating interception angles) due to the launcher being oriented towards a threat, distributed systems are mechanically simpler (no moving parts) and don´t have a "mechanical delay", hence being better suited for very close range interceptions, so a combination of APS may be ideal to deal with different situations. On the other hand, Trophy should be modified to eliminate the blindspot on top of the tank. Perhaps an extra radar can be added facing upwards together with a 3rd launcher, like on AbramsX.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Doctrinally, it is possible that for now the IDF prefers infantry deal with drones. I hope this doesn't stick after the war.

The drones are more a sensor problem, because they are so hard to detect. In Ukraine, Ukrainian and Russian soldiers carry commercial man portable drone radio frequency detectors, so that gives them the heads up to start looking to the sky and trying to listen for nearby drones. IDF can come up with something more dedicated to mount on tanks, and ideally connected to a soft kill (jammer) while having a hard kill and high elevation RCWS as back ups. This resolves the drone problem, and the weight penalty shouldn´t be too much. Gaza Hamas drone footage is particularly scarce, I guess this is because of heavy IDF electronic warfare in place, but Lebanon/Hezbollah would be a lot harder to deal with if tanks don´t have ways to deal with drones themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

From Hamas videos, yes. But it doesn't mean the actual cooperation is insufficient. 

It's been a month since the ground incursion began. How many such videos exist? 

I´m collecting most of the propaganda footage coming from both sides. So far I have 12 videos published by Hamas consisting of compilations of succesful ambushes on IDF units. Most of these videos have at least 1 (but most of them, several) succesful ambush on isolated AFVs (that resulting in AFV destruction/damage is another issue, Hamas never shows a succesfully destroyed/burning AFV). All succesful ambushes on AFVs rely on no infantry providing security to the AFV in question. So, granted this is like focusing on the tree instead of the forest, there are still numerous situations showing insuficient coordination.

Edited November 25, 2023 by alanch90