Sardaukar Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) Just out of curiosity, is there some historical evidence about how famous "gunslingers" (John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill Hickok, Wyatt Earp etc.) and others actually shot their revolvers? I don't think "fast draw" without much aim was the preferred method... And probably 2-handed shooting position neither. Too lazy and busy to googlefu right now, so what is folks' opinion on this Grate Site™? Edited September 26, 2019 by Sardaukar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 There are multiple 19th century drawings of gun duels from Europe and America, and all those I've seen showed some kind of single hand sights-using stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Just out of curiosity, is there some historical evidence about how famous "gunslingers" (John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill Hickok, Wyatt Earp etc.) and others actually shot their revolvers? I don't think "fast draw" without much aim was the preferred method... And probably 2-handed shooting position either. Too lazy and busy to googlefu right now, so what is folks' opinion on this Grate Site™? Shoot outs weren't as common as movies make it appear and ranges were rather short, so there was not much aiming involved. Take OK Corral: "Some members of the two opposing parties were initially only about 6 feet (1.8 m) apart. About 30 shots were fired in 30 seconds." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I think the first shots fired at OK Corral was a shotgun, which kind of defies the myth of quick drawing. Holliday walked into the fight already carrying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 From what I have read, the popular concept of quick drawing has been invented by the movies. Actual revolvers from the era had longer barrels than their counterparts from the movies and I bet the holsters were optimised for secure carry too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 In the ~1975-1985 revolvers were, generally mish-mash of the cheap "suicide specials" converted percussion, cheap Belgian imports and only then "big 4" - Colt, S&W, Remington, Merwin & Hulbert.Colt 1873. cost about 3 "average" monthly pays, cheap small revolver cost about weekly pay. Plus could be carried in the pocket. Guess which ones were more popular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 This may prove interesting, Wyatt Earp's probably mythicalBuntline Special.https://www.kshs.org/p/kansas-historical-quarterly%20wyatt-earp-and-the-buntline-special-myth/13255 I was amused to see it turn up again in Wynona Earp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I had Charles King Sergeant prove that to me, beyond reasonable doubt, in person. No one can possibly react that fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 This may prove interesting, Wyatt Earp's probably mythicalBuntline Special.https://www.kshs.org/p/kansas-historical-quarterly%20wyatt-earp-and-the-buntline-special-myth/13255 I was amused to see it turn up again in Wynona Earp. Earp carried S&W No.3 at OK Corral. He also later had Merwin & Hulbert double action. However he was also known in his older age to frequent gun shops and buy old guns, then gift them to the friends. Ofc, every one of those was used in the famous gunfight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kennedy Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I had Charles King Sergeant prove that to me, beyond reasonable doubt, in person. No one can possibly react that fast. Also pretty sure that no lawman ever faced a black-hatted outlaw on the middle of Main Street with mournful whistling music in the background and waited for him to draw first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) This may prove interesting, Wyatt Earp's probably mythicalBuntline Special.https://www.kshs.org/p/kansas-historical-quarterly%20wyatt-earp-and-the-buntline-special-myth/13255 I was amused to see it turn up again in Wynona Earp. Earp carried S&W No.3 at OK Corral. He also later had Merwin & Hulbert double action. However he was also known in his older age to frequent gun shops and buy old guns, then gift them to the friends. Ofc, every one of those was used in the famous gunfight. Yeah, there must be a half dozen guns he carried with him into OK Corral. Its a wonder they didnt hear him coming with all the clinking. It does make an interesting point in that article, that the weapon used had to have a solid frame, because Wyatt was always clocking people around the head with them. Many of the guns made at that time were so flimsy in the frame, that kind of abuse would probably have bent them out of shape. I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I had Charles King Sergeant prove that to me, beyond reasonable doubt, in person. No one can possibly react that fast. Also pretty sure that no lawman ever faced a black-hatted outlaw on the middle of Main Street with mournful whistling music in the background and waited for him to draw first. But they SHOULD have done. Edited September 27, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I think the first shots fired at OK Corral was a shotgun, which kind of defies the myth of quick drawing. Holliday walked into the fight already carrying it.Never take a pistol to a gunfight, take a shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Old time gunfighters carried extra guns, because it took so long to reload. Also cross draw was popular due to the danger of static electricity causing the black powder to discharge. Most old time gunfighters carried two sometimes three pistols. But I would argue that the great gunfights were the exception rather than the rule they were immortalized because they were rare. Most killings were ambush type murders. I recommend an old book called Triggernometry https://www.amazon.com/Triggernometry-Gallery-Gunfighters-Eugene-Cunningham/dp/0760702519/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1RFNO8X0O8DC2&keywords=triggernometry+book&qid=1574078570&sprefix=triggernom%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I remember reading that much that has been written on quick drawing is complete nonsense. That when someone goes for their gun, there is no way even an experienced gunman is going to suddenly outdraw them. I think the first shots fired at OK Corral was a shotgun, which kind of defies the myth of quick drawing. Holliday walked into the fight already carrying it.Never take a pistol to a gunfight, take a shotgun. Well Holliday may have been reckless, but he clearly wasnt stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 Common sense also dictated that careful aim usually did beat quickness. I think there was at least one anecdote about that. IIRC, J.W.Hardin was described that he was lethal because he was reasonably quick but also very cool-headed and lethal shot. Being a psychopath helped also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Peter Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 This topic has lead me to try to get and read Harry Turtledove's alternative history novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Adam Peter said: Only an issue on SAA and other SA US made revolvers. In Europe Pryse type rebounding hammer started seeing use in 1876, and even before that there was a Francotte safety (Adams, some Webleys and Tranters, Gasser, Francotte etc) that used half-cock that was positively secured and gun could be fired in double action mode from it. Even some single action revolvers had "safety notches" cut between chambers where firing pin could rest and enable gun to be safely carried with all chambers loaded. It was more common on rimfire revolvers, since it could be more easily done, but there were centerfire revolvers that also had it. Ironically majority of percussion revolvers had it in one form or other. Other than that, Iver Johnson introduced it's transfer bar (used widely later) in 1886. Hopkins Allen introduced eccentric hammer in ~1890. Edited November 14, 2020 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 11/21/2019 at 8:07 AM, Sardaukar said: Common sense also dictated that careful aim usually did beat quickness. I think there was at least one anecdote about that. IIRC, J.W.Hardin was described that he was lethal because he was reasonably quick but also very cool-headed and lethal shot. Being a psychopath helped also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Some interesting points about that scene. The first guy who shoots at Munny (Eastwood's character) and the first to die was seen preparing for a fight earlier in the film by loading several revolvers. When the other asked him why it said he wasn't about to get himself killed for lack of shooting back. he's also the only one of the deputies to keep his head an be a real danger to Munny. His shot went just where he intended it to go, bad luck for him Munny wasn't there to take it. The others blaze way panicked and don't come close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickM Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 11/21/2019 at 5:07 AM, Sardaukar said: Common sense also dictated that careful aim usually did beat quickness. I think there was at least one anecdote about that. IIRC, J.W.Hardin was described that he was lethal because he was reasonably quick but also very cool-headed and lethal shot. Being a psychopath helped also. Yeah, it was 'Little Bill' Daggett, the Gene Hackman character from Unforgiven. As he told that reporter/writer, it didn't matter how fast you draw your gun, what was important was that the person who kept their head and then shot straight would invariably win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Peter Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 5 hours ago, bojan said: Iver Johnson introduced it's transfer bar He has an interesting history of making weapons to assassinate US presidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 15, 2020 Author Share Posted November 15, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, R011 said: Some interesting points about that scene. The first guy who shoots at Munny (Eastwood's character) and the first to die was seen preparing for a fight earlier in the film by loading several revolvers. When the other asked him why it said he wasn't about to get himself killed for lack of shooting back. he's also the only one of the deputies to keep his head an be a real danger to Munny. His shot went just where he intended it to go, bad luck for him Munny wasn't there to take it. The others blaze way panicked and don't come close. That's why I liked my SIG 226...while many like .45 etc, I kinda liked the capacity. Nothing ridiculous like extended mag, but if you cannot do the job with 15+1, you are in totally wrong fight... Also, it gives ability to give suppressive fire. Edited November 15, 2020 by Sardaukar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sardaukar said: That's why I liked my SIG 226...while many like .45 etc, I kinda liked the capacity. nothing ridiculous like extended mag, but if you cannot do the job with 15+1, you are in totally wrong fight... The character had about four revolvers and only one arm, so he'd probably still want at least one more pistol even with a high capacity mag. Wouldn't have helped him in the final shoot out either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted November 15, 2020 Author Share Posted November 15, 2020 My favourite was this dude...maybe because I look bit like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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