1960's Combined Arms Tactics

[Rick]

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated

Could of been called worse. Maybe "The Mobile Infantry?" Now that would bug me

[Chris Werb]

 

the knowledge of people on this site never ceases to amaze me - never heard of the Mobile Defence Corps. Much appreciated

Could of been called worse. Maybe "The Mobile Infantry?" Now that would bug me

 

 

That would have cut down dramatically on the cost of training. I think the average age was meant to be in the 35-50 range though which is a bit lower than the cast of the execrable Verhoeven movie

[Colin]

Not sure when the Malaysian got the Sanky, but they also used armoured CMP's

 

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[Stuart Galbraith]

Ive always liked Saxon's. It was an unreliable thing as things went, but it had a certain gravitas about them. And I suspect would convert into an excellent mobile home.

[WRW]

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

remember seeing a few not very complimentary videos - not the most agile

[Chris Werb]

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

 

With artillery fire control systems IIRC.

[WRW]

 

Some Saxon were donated to Ukraine I think

 

 

With artillery fire control systems IIRC.

 

could be - what I saw were having problems with not so bumps on roads and paths

 

 

found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmauH9R_q3o - maybe driver problem??

Edited September 5, 2019 by WRW

[FLOZi]

I found an excellent analysis of the history of British mechanized infantry, one small issue, it is in Finnish:

 

https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/125132/SM1048.pdf?sequence=2

 

The diagram presented in it (Figure (Kuva) 4 page 39) is from 'Notes On The British Army (1968)' https://www.flickr.com/photos/16498755@N07/11399539176/in/photostream/

 

I also found this advert https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1960s-uk-army-recruitment-magazine-advert-85315923.html... Somehow I doubt all support platoons had 12 (!) VIGILANT launchers! Especially as the 1968 orbat above shows Vigilant in a separate battalion level platoon with just 6 launchers, transported by land rover.

Edited October 6, 2019 by FLOZi

[Stuart Galbraith]

Quite often in later years, many of the Milan firing posts were mobilization only formations. They may have done the same with Vigilant.

[GJK]

I found an excellent analysis of the history of British mechanized infantry, one small issue, it is in Finnish:

 

https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/125132/SM1048.pdf?sequence=2

 

The diagram presented in it (Figure (Kuva) 4 page 39) is from 'Notes On The British Army (1968)' https://www.flickr.com/photos/16498755@N07/11399539176/in/photostream/

 

I also found this advert https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1960s-uk-army-recruitment-magazine-advert-85315923.html... Somehow I doubt all support platoons had 12 (!) VIGILANT launchers! Especially as the 1968 orbat above shows Vigilant in a separate battalion level platoon with just 6 launchers, transported by land rover.

Thanks for this, most interesting.

 

12 VIGILANT launchers does not sound so extreme when you consider that a late Cold War mechanized or armoured infantry battalion had 24 MILAN firing posts. Would be interesting to know how many WOMBATs a battalion had before MILAN.

 

Best,

 

Greg.

[Stuart Galbraith]

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.

[bojan]

It is a later peruod, but Yugoslav 1984. M-60P APC Mechanized company from a Mechanized bn had 12 x AT-3. Whole Mech bn had 36 or 48 (3 or 4 x Mech Co)

1984. M-60P APC Mech co from the Armored bn had 7 - total for a bn - 7 or 14 (1 or 2 x Mech co).

Edited October 7, 2019 by bojan

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 firing posts to a company was about average for a WP Company IIRC?

[bojan]

No idea. BMP-1/2 had a launcher each, so number of launchers per co was equal to the number of vehicles in co.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I seem to recall the Soviets beefed up the AT4's (9K111) in BTR motor rifle companies, but I cant remember off the top of my head whether it was 7 or 9 AT4's per company. I guess it was to compensate for the relative lack of firepower compared to BMP's. They seemed to parcel those out, unlike NATO, to the individual Platoon's. They would have had about 27 AT4's per battalion, but they also IIRC had an AT5 launcher, though I cant remember how many of those they had per battalion.

[Interlinked]

@bojan The BMP-2 carried one extra 9P135 launcher inside the turret for the dismounts.

[FLOZi]

Frankly I didn't think Vigilant was so widely adopted to make it reasonable. Poster is tagged as "60's" but perhaps could be later (not by much, mind as Vigilant can't have lasted much longer?). Smacked of "Hey boys, come play with cool toys" and "btw Ivan, we have alllll these missiles, don't try it!" to me. That and it was completely incongruous with the Orbat, though I suppose I shouldn't put too much weight in official 'ideal' organisations?

[Chris Werb]

I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.

[GJK]

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.

Thanks Stuart.

 

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

 

Best,

 

Greg.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.

 

Yeah, there was almost certainly a gap between vigilant being withdrawn, and our getting Milan. I THINK we got Milan in about 1982, but we obviously got rid of Vigilant by the late 70's. Obviously Wombat was never fully displaced. I think we were still using it in some formations in the late 1980's

 

I dont know what the scale of Vigilant issue was. It may have been a case where they trained up a nucleus of operators, and expected to issue them in wartime. Thats pure speculation on my part.

 

 

 

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.

Thanks Stuart.

 

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

 

Best,

 

Greg.

 

 

Yeah, thats right for a mechanised or Armoured Infantry battalion. They have 24 IIRC. The battalions attached to 24 Airmobile were a lot more of course, 48 IIRC.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[jakec]

I seem to recall the Soviets beefed up the AT4's (9K111) in BTR motor rifle companies, but I cant remember off the top of my head whether it was 7 or 9 AT4's per company. I guess it was to compensate for the relative lack of firepower compared to BMP's. They seemed to parcel those out, unlike NATO, to the individual Platoon's. They would have had about 27 AT4's per battalion, but they also IIRC had an AT5 launcher, though I cant remember how many of those they had per battalion.

I think you'll find it was 4 AT4 firing posts per BTR battalion (6 in some battalions in the 1980s). At company level they used the AT-7 Metis (3 firing posts per company).

[Stuart Galbraith]

That was it! I knew there was 9 fp per something. My apologies, I should never operate on memory alone. The 27 I was thinking of is probably RPG's per Battalion.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[GJK]

 

 

I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.

Yeah, there was almost certainly a gap between vigilant being withdrawn, and our getting Milan. I THINK we got Milan in about 1982, but we obviously got rid of Vigilant by the late 70's. Obviously Wombat was never fully displaced. I think we were still using it in some formations in the late 1980's

 

I dont know what the scale of Vigilant issue was. It may have been a case where they trained up a nucleus of operators, and expected to issue them in wartime. Thats pure speculation on my part.

 

 

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.

Thanks Stuart.

 

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

 

Best,

 

Greg.

Yeah, thats right for a mechanised or Armoured Infantry battalion. They have 24 IIRC. The battalions attached to 24 Airmobile were a lot more of course, 48 IIRC.

Type A (mechanized (wheeled)) battalions had 24 as well, organised as per armoured/mechanized (tracked) battalions, but mounted on Land Rovers. Type B (light role) and para bns had 6, also carried in Land Rovers.

 

Airmobile inf bns had 42 firing posts. 10 in the anti-tank platoon of each rifle company and 12 in the anti-tank mobile platoon in support company. All were mounted on Land Rovers.

[Chris Werb]

Carried by, not mounted on AFAIK.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was a scout section mounted in landrovers, not unlike the SAS pinkies. I cant remember whether they mounted an automatic grenade launcher or had a Milan mount though.