Mass Shooting

[Mr King]

[rmgill]

If only we banned everyone from having guns then the FBI would not be in a position to trip over their dicks yet again. 

[Murph]

Yeah, the FBI is looking less and less competent, I had not believed that was possible.

[NickM]

1 hour ago, Steven P Allen said:

My boys had access to rifles when they were younger than that.  They also had training and proper discipline.  They knew when and for what they could use the rifles, which included semi-autos.  Amazingly, they never used them otherwise, and no one ever got so much as a fright.  Later in life, one even spent time working as an armed guard.  "Train a child up in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it."

Parental involvement is certainly important, you are correct there, but a blanket "keep guns out of the hands of children" is fallacious, type of gun being completely irrelevant.

Oh come now, you expect the ferals  to behave  like normals?

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

If only we banned everyone from having guns then the FBI would not be in a position to trip over their dicks yet again. 

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Yeah, the FBI is looking less and less competent, I had not believed that was possible.

You two might want to try this crazy thing called 'reading' where you'd actually discover what the FBI statement said.  They passed along the info to local authorities who interviewed him and his father.  They claim there wasn't enough to make an arrest but going forward from that point local police and the boy's father should have been fully aware.  This isn't on the FBI at all... they received tips, figured out who it was, and passed it along.

[rmgill]

Barrow County is east of Atlanta and is pretty rural. It doesn't have any major towns. Winder is I think the largest (Pop 18,000 in the 2020 census) and that's not very large.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Barrow+County,+GA/@34.007685,-83.7965431,31044m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x88f452c3f822962f:0x4838b967f3ac74e5!8m2!3d34.0142667!4d-83.6986568!16zL20vMG5fOWo?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

In this case, I expect we'll find that the school noted a series of misbehavior and failed to do anything. Or worse, the school noted a pattern of abuse of the kid and failed to do anything. 

The no-fighting rules mean that students who fight back are punished. And without a set of lessons in establishing more orderly pecking order you end up with lord of the flies type behavior and that ends up with it's own issues. 

Add to that, we may find some of the current narrative in teaching as a contributing factor, however this is all speculation based on past incidents. We'll see what the facts are after several days of news. I expect the investigation will be more thorough than what the FBI did for the Trump Assassination as the GBI and the Barrow county SO will be more scrupulous. 

[rmgill]

47 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

You two might want to try this crazy thing called 'reading' where you'd actually discover what the FBI statement said.  They passed along the info to local authorities who interviewed him and his father.  They claim there wasn't enough to make an arrest but going forward from that point local police and the boy's father should have been fully aware.  This isn't on the FBI at all... they received tips, figured out who it was, and passed it along.

Yes, I am aware. But you really mean they passed the buck. They ALWAYS pass the buck. When has the FBI ever taken responsibility for anything? 

Suffice to say, the lefty narrative of "why can't we do something" inevitably turns to punishing everyone when they can't figure out how to deal with a single person and the risks with them. 

[edit] I should note that the FBI has no problems putting MAGA grandmothers in prison for walking into the capitol, through open doors and mugging for a camera. What's the difference? I thought, per you and yours that the FBI had jurisdiction EVERYWHERE and were all powerful. 


Oh, and you might want to point all of this out to the President given the already extant call for more gun control. 

 

Edited September 5, 2024 by rmgill

[Murph]

Agreed the pass the buck all the time, unless they can rush in front of a camera and proclaim "Look what WE DID!",  Unlike that poster, I have actual experience in dealing with the Federal Bureau of Incompetence.  

[sunday]

4 hours ago, Steven P Allen said:

No prayer involved, alas! not even the metaphorical kind.  They simply don't care what they hit.

Well, then I suppose we shall talk about spray-and-swear techniques...

[Ssnake]

Well, Murph, you complain if the Feds barge in and take over for not respecting the principle of subsidiarity. Here they did, now your take is that they evaded "their" responsibility by simply passing the buck.

It strikes me as slightly inconsistent.

I realize  of course, that both can be true at the same time. But then I'd need some explanation why a local school shooting is an FBI responsibility rather than being handled at the county or state level.

[sunday]

4 hours ago, Steven P Allen said:

My boys had access to rifles when they were younger than that.  They also had training and proper discipline.  They knew when and for what they could use the rifles, which included semi-autos.  Amazingly, they never used them otherwise, and no one ever got so much as a fright.  Later in life, one even spent time working as an armed guard.  "Train a child up in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it."

Parental involvement is certainly important, you are correct there, but a blanket "keep guns out of the hands of children" is fallacious, type of gun being completely irrelevant.

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

Kids in the US used to be able to board a bus, take it to the local sears, buy a WWII milsurp rifle out of a barrel of 50, buy a sling and carry it home on the same bus and go shooting at their high school range. 

We didn't have thousands of school shootings then. Something else changed

According to what I've read around that something could be divorce, babies out of wedlock, upbringing without a father figure for a couple of (or more) generations, teaching of boys only by female feminized teachers, and more. Blacks are more affected by that.

@Steven P Allen's children could be considered as privileged, in the good sense, in that regard.

[rmgill]

47 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Well, Murph, you complain if the Feds barge in and take over for not respecting the principle of subsidiarity. Here they did, now your take is that they evaded "their" responsibility by simply passing the buck.

It's a reasonable point from you, not from Skywalkre given how much he has an affinity for federal involvement in everything. 

However, the overall behavior is that we see the federal government willing to get involved with no end until they have nothing they can gain from it and they drop it all and split. This isn't a matter of Murph being inconsistent, but rather experienced in how the FBI does handle things. 

Note their method of effecting investigations doesn't work at the state and local level because they do NOT record their interviews with subjects, they 'recollect' what the subject said and write it down. 

They very well may have come in, bulldozed over the family's rights and basic legal defenses, screwed up the case and then dumped it in the laps of the locals upon their exit. This is apparently SOP for the FBI. 

47 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I realize  of course, that both can be true at the same time. But then I'd need some explanation why a local school shooting is an FBI responsibility rather than being handled at the county or state level.

Because this is how the Feds work. They come in when they can to cover themselves in glory and then will split when they've gleaned all they want and dump the trash in the hands of the locals. 

I've heard this from DEA taskforce and local/state PD officers. 

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Well, Murph, you complain if the Feds barge in and take over for not respecting the principle of subsidiarity. Here they did, now your take is that they evaded "their" responsibility by simply passing the buck.

It strikes me as slightly inconsistent.

I realize  of course, that both can be true at the same time. But then I'd need some explanation why a local school shooting is an FBI responsibility rather than being handled at the county or state level.

You're expecting too much.

A page or so back I linked an article reaffirming that local police up in Maine failed in their duties because the laws there would have allowed them to take in that shooter before his rampage.  They didn't.  You'll note the complete lack of outrage from the multiple times I've posted about that.

Here... the only way the FBI can be at fault is a) there was Fed law they could act on with the info they had (the release implies there wasn't) or b) the locals were so incompetent that if the FBI had conducted the interview they could have somehow got this shooter to incriminate himself a year ago.  Instead, local police handled it, apparently had nothing to go off of (rmgill could try adding useful dialogue to the discussion by highlighting local law instead of the typical off-the-wall hyperbole), and that was that.

It should also be noted since seeing this vtiriol towards the FBI here on TN about this story I went looking to see if I could find more... and I couldn't.  No one is bitching about this because there's nothing to bitch about. 

[Skywalkre]

Focusing on discussion that actually addresses those who may have been able to stop this... it seems for sure the father deserves closer attention. 

• The shooter's aunt stated the boy was crying out for help for a while (but I've seen some comments she may have retracted that statement) and was mentally unstable.  The shooter was also apparently obsessed with the school shooter in the Parkland, FL incident (no articles have pinpointed who knew this... because that's a massive red flag).
• Multiple sources are stating the boy was... odd... and bullied at school.  One article mentioned a discussion between the father and school officials basically begging them to do whatever they could to get him to pass 7th grade and move on. 
• Still unsure if there was a mother in the home as most articles seem to imply it was just the father.  The father stated back in the interview a year ago the guns were secured and the son didn't have access to them.  I still haven't heard for sure if the gun was the father's.
• The family was evicted last year.

So... you have a situation where it may be a single dad, who knows how much he's working to pay the bills, with a son that needs professional help.  No idea if the father, like so many, just blew this off.  It's also not sounding like the father was really involved in the son's life (again, fairly typical for your average American household).

Who knows what the laws in GA allow folks to do.  In this day and age teachers are fully aware to be looking out for students like this.  Did they notice something but have no recourse to reach out to?

Like all of these incidents it's tragic... and as we learn more you're left wondering how in this day and age this wasn't caught sooner.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

it wasn't caught sooner because it's just too easy to look the other way.  There's more liability in action than there is with inaction (thinking macro, indivdual results may very).

while there is an enormous amount to say about how these things happen and how it is handled I just don't have the desire to wade through it all again.  To make it very, very short the erosion of the nuclear family is the kernel of the problem.  Morality and law can't be waved away without effect.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

A page or so back I linked an article reaffirming that local police up in Maine failed in their duties because the laws there would have allowed them to take in that shooter before his rampage.  They didn't.  You'll note the complete lack of outrage from the multiple times I've posted about that.

In that case it was a soldier who'd been deemed a danger. So that's just a local police issue? Really? Wasn't there a federal/military component to Robert R. Card Jr.'s case? 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

Here... the only way the FBI can be at fault is a) there was Fed law they could act on with the info they had (the release implies there wasn't) or b) the locals were so incompetent that if the FBI had conducted the interview they could have somehow got this shooter to incriminate himself a year ago. 

Again, let me make an important note. 

THE FBI DOES NOT RECORD ITS INTERVIEWS. 

They write up what they think the person said and that's their 'evidence'. The DOJ brings so much mass to bear that that works at the federal level. 
In a state court that's easy to challenge. Likely a good prosecutor won't even touch it. 

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/498694-why-the-fbi-doesnt-record-interviews/

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

It should also be noted since seeing this vtiriol towards the FBI here on TN about this story I went looking to see if I could find more... and I couldn't.  No one is bitching about this because there's nothing to bitch about. 

So the FBI did all anyone could do...so what's the result? We need more AR 15 gun control? 

 

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

it wasn't caught sooner because it's just too easy to look the other way. 

I'm not really hearing that from friends I know who are teachers. 

Say they spot someone early.  Ok... what do they do?  Report it to the police?  As we saw here that's no guarantee of anything.  The laws of the state may limit options as well.  The problem with red and yellow flag laws is that if local law enforcement fail to enforce them (as has happened multiple times already) it's the same as not having them. 

Ok... get the kid help?  You think a public school system has the money to pay for therapy?  If a teacher takes this to the parents they're more likely to get reamed for implying their special snowflake has problems.  One of the recurring problems I hear from teachers is that parents are fucking awful this day and age.

In the end they may not do anything... but that's because, twenty years into this new reality, there's still rarely anything they can do.

[rmgill]

So commitment is the answer no? Mental health holds? Now, how do we protect rights at the same time? How do we avoid the abuses that we saw before? 

[Skywalkre]

Two more developments this evening.

• The gun was apparently a gift from the father to the son.
• The father has been arrested and charged with a host of charges (in large part because of the aforementioned point).

[Josh]

I think any gun owner, including myself, should be criminally liable for thier guns up until the point they are reported stolen to local authorities. Otherwise, you just suck at gun ownership.

[rmgill]

Do the same for cars. Other property too. Also, do go after the government when THEY lose guns. See also the Obama era plan to ship guns to Mexico. Also too, all the arms left in Afghanistan. 

Why the special carve out for firearms? Make it like all things. Your wifi is used to download porn, you're guilty. Your computer is used as part of a bot net, you're guilty. Your internet enabled toaster is used for a bot-net, you're guilty. 

Storage laws were shitcanned in the Heller vs DC case. 

Arms are for defense, if you're required to have ALL of them locked up and even then if the kids get into the safe/cabinet you're guilty then it's an end run around every principle of liability possible AND the 2nd amendment. 

Also, what if the kids NEED the gun to defend themselves. You think kids don't get attacked when mom and dad are home? 

Edited September 6, 2024 by rmgill

[Josh]

53 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Do the same for cars. Other property too. Also, do go after the government when THEY lose guns. See also the Obama era plan to ship guns to Mexico. Also too, all the arms left in Afghanistan. 

Why the special carve out for firearms? Make it like all things. Your wifi is used to download porn, you're guilty. Your computer is used as part of a bot net, you're guilty. Your internet enabled toaster is used for a bot-net, you're guilty. 

Storage laws were shitcanned in the Heller vs DC case. 

Arms are for defense, if you're required to have ALL of them locked up and even then if the kids get into the safe/cabinet you're guilty then it's an end run around every principle of liability possible AND the 2nd amendment. 

Also, what if the kids NEED the gun to defend themselves. You think kids don't get attacked when mom and dad are home? 

We do the same thing with cars. Most states will not allow you to operate one without insurance that you will pay for any damage you do.

[Josh]

Also if your solution is to arm children at school, I’m all for that. Let’s start with inner city kids.

[Rick]

14 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Well, Murph, you complain if the Feds barge in and take over for not respecting the principle of subsidiarity. Here they did, now your take is that they evaded "their" responsibility by simply passing the buck.

It strikes me as slightly inconsistent.

I realize  of course, that both can be true at the same time. But then I'd need some explanation why a local school shooting is an FBI responsibility rather than being handled at the county or state level.

This.

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Rick said:

This.

Why are parents who yell at PTA meetings FBI Responsibility? 

Why is investigating catholics at the behest of Southern Poverty Law Center, Salon, and The Atlantic an FBI Responsibility? 

Why are school shootings an FBI responsibility at all? Isn't that state and local to begin with?