Mass Shooting

[Murph]

Good, and I hope he gets what he deserved in a German prison.

[Ivanhoe]

 

https://6abc.com/septa-bus-stop-shooting-manhunt-us-marshals-philadelphia/14519524/

https://pjmedia.com/kevindowneyjr/2024/03/13/now-we-know-why-that-philly-bus-station-mass-shooting-vanished-from-the-headlines-n4927275

Quote

The Philly bus stop mass shooting that dominated the headline for a micro-minute disappeared when it was apparent that a disgruntled racist white guy did not ventilate those black teens. Much like the tragic Sweet 16 Party mass shooting last year in Dadeville, Ala., that left four dead and 32 injured. All six shooters and all of the victims were black.

Not to be found on USA Today's home page...

Quote

This is a nightmare scenario for thug-loving Marxists on the left. As much as they press the myths that rural America is crawling with drooling peckerwoods armed with Terminator-like Gatling blasters, eager to perforate minorities, the evidence suggests something quite different. Black men are massacring black men in terrifying numbers, and at least one had a machine gun.

To be clear, not a machine gun but a machine pistol (Glock with the increasingly popular "Glock switch").

 

[Ivanhoe]

So much for red flag laws;

https://tennesseestar.com/news/report-covenant-school-shooter-told-therapist-she-fantasized-about-killing-her-family/mgiffin/2024/05/31/
 

Quote

 

Covenant School shooter Audrey Elizabeth Hale reportedly told her therapist that she was fantasizing about killing her family and committing a school shooting, according to a report by 99.7 WTN radio host Brian Wilson. The therapist reportedly did not report these findings to authorities.

99.7 WTN host Brian Wilson: The ongoing investigation apparently focuses on the shooter’s therapist. Metro Nashville Police Department is remaining silent on this, but sources familiar with the investigation confirm that search warrants were run on the home and office of the therapist in an effort to obtain notes of the therapy sessions with the Covenant School shooter. One source says detectives have evidence that the shooter told the therapist about fantasies that involved, among other things, killing her parents and carrying out a school shooting of some kind.

Tennessee Code Annotated (TCA) 33-3-206 mandates that if a “service recipient has communicated to a mental health professional or behavior analyst an actual threat of bodily harm against a clearly identified victim” and “has determined or reasonably should have determined that the service recipient has the apparent ability to commit such an act and is likely to carry out the threat unless prevented from doing so,” the mental health professional “shall take reasonable care to predict, warn of, or take precautions to protect the identified victim from the service recipient’s violent behavior.”

Additionally, TCA 24-1-207 gives protection to mental health professionals who must warn others but may need to communicate sensitive information about their patients.

 

 

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

“has determined or reasonably should have determined that the service recipient has the apparent ability to commit such an act 

check

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

a “service recipient has communicated to a mental health professional or behavior analyst an actual threat of bodily harm against a clearly identified victim”

check

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

and is likely to carry out the threat unless prevented from doing so

Interpretative dancing begins

 

Maybe the text of the law isn't very good to begin with. But of course it's difficutl; if everything must be reported, people will simply shut up in therapy, and then therapy no longer works. Will that be better for society in the long run? Depends, I guess, on your position on psychotherapy in general.

[R011]

People will shut up and/or police will be inundated with false positives and real dangers will slip through.  Better to trust therapists to mostly get it right than impose one size fits all zero tolerance.

[Skywalkre]

The police actually have to do their job, though.  There's at least two instances I've heard of, one in the recent Maine shooting and another a few years ago in CO, where local police either weren't willing to carry out their duties or just ignored the order from the judge.

[Skywalkre]

Maine released a report recently highlighting who dropped the ball at various points leading up to the mass shooting up there.  Per my post above this the local sheriff's office had an opportunity to take him into protective custody given their yellow flag laws but failed to.  The report also faulted the Army at several points (I've heard at least three officers have been punished).  Regardless, a lot of folks failed leading up to this as this quote from further in the article highlights:

Quote

"One of the things that's so striking about this case is how he had such a severe paranoia delusions that seemed to be persistent for such a long period of time," Gideon said of the gunman, "but then he was discharged back into the community with no treatment for that."

The whole affair highlights a major failing in our system... in that we don't really have a system to handle folks like this.

Quote

Maine mass shooting report exposes failure in Army, law enforcement and hospital responses

A state commission was tasked to "find the facts" in a shooting by an Army reservist whose mental health had deteriorated in the previous months.

Almost 10 months after an Army reservist's deadly rampage in Lewiston, Maine, an independent commission said Tuesday that local law enforcement and the U.S. military had missed "several opportunities" that, if taken, "might have changed the course of these tragic events."

While the independent commission's final report found that gunman Robert Card was solely responsible for his own conduct, other lapses played a role, including:

• A Sagadahoc County Sheriff's Office sergeant conducting a welfare check on Card weeks before the shooting had "sufficient probable cause" to take him into protective custody under state law.
• The leaders of Card's Army Reserve unit "failed to undertake necessary steps to reduce the threat he posed to the public," such as ignoring "strong recommendations" from his mental health providers to stay engaged with his care and ensure any weapons in his home were removed, and they "neglected to share" with the local sheriff's office all of the information they knew about past threats he had made.
• The gunman's company commander had the ability to store service members' personal firearms and failed to properly check back in with Card after he was placed in a psychiatric unit last summer at an Army training in West Point, New York, where he got into a physical altercation with another reservist.
• Medical staff members at Keller Army Community Hospital in West Point, where Card was initially evaluated last summer, failed to file a so-called SAFE Act notice, which is used to alert authorities when someone may be a danger to themselves or others.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maine-mass-shooting-exposes-failures-army-law-enforcement-hospital-res-rcna165476

[rmgill]

Is it we don't have systems or that they're effectively staffed by incompetents? 

Does the Army REALLY not have a way of detecting people who are unhinged? 

And, if someone is so unsafe to have their guns, why are they safe enough to be left walking around? 
Seriously, if you can suspend their rights, then put them away and deal with it like it's supposed to be. 

Edited August 24, 2024 by rmgill

[DB]

4 dead in a Georgia school shooting - two students and two teachers.

This is Apalachee High School, Barrow County.

The White House response will trigger you all, of course - assault weapons bans being needed and all that jazz.

[sunday]

3 minutes ago, DB said:

4 dead in a Georgia school shooting - two students and two teachers.

This is Apalachee High School, Barrow County.

The White House response will trigger you all, of course - assault weapons bans being needed and all that jazz.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, Philadelphia and Baltimore...

[DB]

A different problem, albeit the age demographics for most victims overlap.

It might even be debatable whether many of those involved in urban gang killings should be called "casualties" rather than "victims".

[sunday]

A death is a death.

[Rick]

1 hour ago, DB said:

4 dead in a Georgia school shooting - two students and two teachers.

This is Apalachee High School, Barrow County.

The White House response will trigger you all, of course - assault weapons bans being needed and all that jazz.

It's not the weapon that is the problem but the person behind it. The sanctity of life and the morality of behind it is what is the problem, not the weapon. 

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

A death is a death.

Gangbangers killing each other is basically the trash taking itself out, as long as those not involved are not hurt.

[sunday]

Just now, urbanoid said:

... as long as those not involved are not hurt.

They are. Poor trigger discipline, poor aiming, spray-and-pray techniques...

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

It's not the weapon that is the problem but the person behind it. The sanctity of life and the morality of behind it is what is the problem, not the weapon. 

If you give someone a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Particularly if you are a 14 year old kid.

Its not about gun control, its about making sure adults are sane enough to keep guns out the hands of children. Particular AR's.

[Markus Becker]

We had one in Munich this morning.

On the anniversary of the 1972 Olymic attack an 18 year old Islamist from Austria fired shots at the Israeli Consulate - with a bolt action rifle that had a bayonet mounted. The idiot is dead.

 

A video:

https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/schuesse-in-muenchen-mit-roter-hose-und-uralt-waffe-video-soll-angreifer-zeigen_id_260286123.html

[Wobbly Head]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If you give someone a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Particularly if you are a 14 year old kid.

Its not about gun control, its about making sure adults are sane enough to keep guns out the hands of children. Particular AR's.

 Smart people and dumb people can get their hands on weapons if they put their minds to it. 

As for the boggy man AR15 it's not really a powerful rifle and is more banned because it looks scary. 

They banned the AR15 in Canada because of its look. In the over fifty years it was available it was only used in a handful of crimes in Canada. None were by a licensed gun owner.

 You cannot even hunt with 5.56mm(.223) in Canada as most provencies have a minimum caliber of.25 inch for large game. .223 is considered a varmint cartridge as far as fish and game are concerned. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just now, Wobbly Head said:

 Smart people and dumb people can get their hands on weapons if they put their minds to it. 

As for the boggy man AR15 it's not really a powerful rifle and is more banned because it looks scary. 

They banned the AR15 in Canada because of its look. In the over fifty years it was available it was only used in a handful of crimes in Canada. None were by a licensed gun owner.

 You cannot even hunt with 5.56mm(.223) in Canada as most provencies have a minimum caliber of.25 inch for large game. .223 is considered a varmint cartridge as far as fish and game are concerned. 

A lot depends on the model I guess, but I was recently listening to a podcast on the Norco 80 shooting, which was one of the first incidents in the US an AR-15 (along with a G-3 interestingly) and the result among the police was absolute carnage. In the end the only weapon they had that could respond to the bank robbers was an M16 that had fallen off the back of a military truck alongside the higway, and they had neglected to give back...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout

Alright, times have changed, but perhaps the militarization of the police that even a few here have complained about down the years, was a direct response to such weapons.

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, DB said:

4 dead in a Georgia school shooting - two students and two teachers.

This is Apalachee High School, Barrow County.

The White House response will trigger you all, of course - assault weapons bans being needed and all that jazz.

A friend is a friend with a Barrow county School resource officer. they were on it fast and the 14yo shooter surrendered immediately. 

Amazing what happens when the police are cowards and in competent. 

Oh and the gun, apparently a 12 gauge pump. Biden's proposed AWB will take care of that not at all. 

[Steven P Allen]

2 hours ago, sunday said:

They are. Poor trigger discipline, poor aiming, spray-and-pray techniques...

No prayer involved, alas! not even the metaphorical kind.  They simply don't care what they hit.

[rmgill]

12 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

A lot depends on the model I guess, but I was recently listening to a podcast on the Norco 80 shooting, which was one of the first incidents in the US an AR-15 (along with a G-3 interestingly) and the result among the police was absolute carnage. In the end the only weapon they had that could respond to the bank robbers was an M16 that had fallen off the back of a military truck alongside the higway, and they had neglected to give back...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout

Alright, times have changed, but perhaps the militarization of the police that even a few here have complained about down the years, was a direct response to such weapons.

That's a treatise in the incompetence of government. 

Unprepared.
Untrained. 
Unequipped.
Fails to return lost property that a serial number search would yield easy results on - so criminally neglignet.
Laws that hinder the response. 


Hell, lever action rifles in just about ANY reasonable medium or longer range caliber would work for shooting at someone with an AR in a civilian law enforcement setting. Even M1 Garands would have worked or Mini 14s with scopes. 

You don't need the latest and greatest whizzbang military rifles to fight gang bangers or armed robbers. Just fire power and weight of fire that is properly and carefully aimed from hard cover. 

Mini 14s or even WWSD ARs would be ideal for police. Add in a good optic and a weapon light would work. They're not going to be clearing houses for days. They're doing a focused response on a specific incident. Use weapon lights that use the same that the police already use for compatibility and if mixing Mini-14s and ARs, keep a stock of the same magazines and buy a contract for ammo in 5.56 that has the necessary barrier and stopping functions and TRAIN the officers in their use. 

[Steven P Allen]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If you give someone a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Particularly if you are a 14 year old kid.

Its not about gun control, its about making sure adults are sane enough to keep guns out the hands of children. Particular AR's.

My boys had access to rifles when they were younger than that.  They also had training and proper discipline.  They knew when and for what they could use the rifles, which included semi-autos.  Amazingly, they never used them otherwise, and no one ever got so much as a fright.  Later in life, one even spent time working as an armed guard.  "Train a child up in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it."

Parental involvement is certainly important, you are correct there, but a blanket "keep guns out of the hands of children" is fallacious, type of gun being completely irrelevant.

[rmgill]

Kids in the US used to be able to board a bus, take it to the local sears, buy a WWII milsurp rifle out of a barrel of 50, buy a sling and carry it home on the same bus and go shooting at their high school range. 

We didn't have thousands of school shootings then. Something else changed

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 minutes ago, Steven P Allen said:

My boys had access to rifles when they were younger than that.  They also had training and proper discipline.  They knew when and for what they could use the rifles, which included semi-autos.  Amazingly, they never used them otherwise, and no one ever got so much as a fright.  Later in life, one even spent time working as an armed guard.  "Train a child up in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it."

Parental involvement is certainly important, you are correct there, but a blanket "keep guns out of the hands of children" is fallacious, type of gun being completely irrelevant.

My mother was using an air rifle about that age, shooting the ceramic insulators off power lines. But then it illustrates, parential influence goes a long way.

Alright, then lets agree on something, keep weapons out the hands of children that might use them for ill. And if parents arent sure about their kids, then dont let them near them.