Mass Shooting

[Murph]

Trannies come in the three flavors, too many are sexual predators/sexual deviants.  The murderer at the school got what she deserved, it is a pity she managed to kill so many kids and adults.  If there had been security maybe she would have been shot down like the rabid dog she was before anyone got hurt.

[Ivanhoe]

https://pjmedia.com/columns/victor-davis-hanson/2023/03/31/left-wing-violence-chic-n1683274

 

Quote

 

Yet in about a nano-second after the news was disclosed, the left-wing activist machine kicked in, led by politicians, entertainers, and the media.

Three predictable themes surfaced.

The first was led by none other than President Joe Biden. He lectured that guns were the cause of the mass deaths, not the free will of a psychopathic killer.

Few noted that the shooter illegally purchased firearms by hiding her documented record of emotional disorders.

Second, America was told that it would serve no purpose to publish the shooter’s manifesto. Apparently, this exception to the usual practice was due to fears her manifesto would hurt the transgender cause.

Third, some in the activist media claimed that, while such murdering was regrettable, it was also understandable — given supposed Christian, conservative America’s intolerance of transgender people. In our sick society, the targeted victims became the political victimizers.

 

 

[DKTanker]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Trannies come in the three flavors, too many are sexual predators/sexual deviants.  The murderer at the school got what she deserved wanted, it is a pity she managed to kill so many kids and adults.  If there had been security maybe she would have been shot down like the rabid dog she was before anyone got hurt.

She did what she did to commit suicide by cop and become a martyr.  She succeeded.  Had the cops not been so successful with achieving her goals, perhaps her trial for capital murder could have shed some blazing white light on the twisted nonsense of enabling gender dysphoria.  As it stands she remains a martyr to her "cause" and most importantly, her death without a trial, probably means her written testimony / manifesto is never made public.  And even if made public, it likely will be buried in ways that a trial would likely have made impossible.

[Murph]

Point.  But if she had been taken alive, how many other kids and adults would have died?  

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Point.  But if she had been taken alive, how many other kids and adults would have died?  

I don't know, it is unknowable.  That said, from body cam footage it appeared she was alone in that second story room with no way out save jumping out the window.  In any case, for all her mental problems, she was smart enough to know that LEOs would kill her before taking her alive.  She counted on that.

[rmgill]

9 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Fine, but the statement "At no other time in recent history has the fight for both transgender rights and firearm rights been more critical. We have seen legislation limiting, or outright banning, gender-affirming care which has the potential to impact many transgender individuals and restrict their ability to live happy lives. " would seem to imply support for the current trend of teachers and doctors coercing 5 year olds to believe they are trans.

 

Granted that gets into the larger issue of the surgeries and the issue of this with children. Though it's not clear, certainly is implied.

I'm just pleased that it DOES draw a line at the end on the attack/vengance vs defense distinction which is more than I can say for what we've seen out of politicians and some media figures. 

The ideologically loaded language of "gender affirming care" is another ball of wax. 

[rmgill]

42 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

I don't know, it is unknowable.  That said, from body cam footage it appeared she was alone in that second story room with no way out save jumping out the window.  In any case, for all her mental problems, she was smart enough to know that LEOs would kill her before taking her alive.  She counted on that.

I get the impression she was firing out of the window at police and other folks. 

[DKTanker]

36 minutes ago, rmgill said:

I get the impression she was firing out of the window at police and other folks. 

I believe that was the case.  Easy enough to avoid her fire.  Evidenced by no reported casualties or deaths due to that fire.

Edited April 3, 2023 by DKTanker

[rmgill]

Could be she was just a awful shot. 

[Murph]

17 hours ago, DKTanker said:

I don't know, it is unknowable.  That said, from body cam footage it appeared she was alone in that second story room with no way out save jumping out the window.  In any case, for all her mental problems, she was smart enough to know that LEOs would kill her before taking her alive.  She counted on that.

That is very possible.

[Murph]

16 hours ago, rmgill said:

Granted that gets into the larger issue of the surgeries and the issue of this with children. Though it's not clear, certainly is implied.

I'm just pleased that it DOES draw a line at the end on the attack/vengance vs defense distinction which is more than I can say for what we've seen out of politicians and some media figures. 

The ideologically loaded language of "gender affirming care" is another ball of wax. 

Yeah, call it what it is: Child genital mutilation.

[rmgill]

In both cases, it's genital mutilation. However with children it's sterilization even if it's just cross sex hormones before/during puberty. The kicker is that when the puberty blockers are given it just pauses things. The cross sex hormones sterilize the kids. Even if there's never any bottom surgery to remove gonads or make the fake penis or pouch. 

[Skywalkre]

On 3/29/2023 at 1:10 PM, Murph said:

Also this makes criminals go to the soft targets:

Most schools, even in Texas, are still soft targets.  From what news reports are showing only a small number of districts in Texas have faculty willing to or take advantage of the ability to carry on campus.  This shouldn't be surprising given what your average teacher is like even in a red state.

Even then we've had shootings at schools with police present.  So to say having an armed presence will deter clearly isn't always the case.  I think it's safe to say arming staff hasn't been shown to be a deterrence as much as these incidents are just still a very rare thing even with the massive rise we've seen over the last two decades.

The lack of any meaningful discussion is frustrating.  There was a clip a few days after this incident showing two Congressman going at it.  The D was screaming about letting kids die or something and the R was just saying we need to arm everyone and we'll be fine.  Clearly the former was letting his emotions get to him and the latter was just living in fantasy land to think we have enough clear evidence to show that's the best solution or even a viable one (again, given who goes into teaching you're not going to have many volunteer to carry guns as we've seen even in Texas).

So... what's the answer?

[Skywalkre]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:56 AM, Angrybk said:

I think there's not going to be any comity.

Why not?  Why can't there be?

While I mentioned after some of these incidents gun control advocates have pushed for measures that wouldn't have changed anything... there have also been incidents where reasonable measures would have prevented it.

Ivanhoe linked to an article several posts up highlighting how TN may have had laws on the book that could have prevented this (that article is rather poorly written, though... I haven't seen a timetable for when she bought every gun and when she started treatment and was found to be a possible danger to herself or others).

So... what went wrong?  Was there a lack of funding?  A lack of enforcement?  A lack of training?  Were the laws poorly written?  Why aren't we talking about this?  More importantly, why aren't politicians talking about this, finding what the shortcomings were, and addressing them?

It just seems to be another reminder of the complete ineffectiveness of government from the state to Fed level to tackle anything meaningful.

This is also something that Rs may come to regret if they just keep following this path of pushing back against anything and everything.  David Brooks has noted that if you look closely at the polling there's a spike for gun control legislation after each of these major events but then it comes back down.  The thing is... it never comes back down to where it was overall.  The trend is ever so slowly moving towards gun control.  In part I think that's because of the complete lack of any effort put in by politicians, led by Rs, to look into these incidents, try and understand them, and see if anything meaningful can be done.

I've said before I see the US moving to universal health care in my lifetime... not because it's the right thing but because of politicians (led by Rs, again) not doing anything about a system that's garbage for so many leading to so much resentment eventually they won't be able to stop it.  I'm starting to wonder if I'll see something similar regarding the 2nd Amendment in my lifetime...

[DB]

Without wanting to sound too antagonistic, I think you're presenting your question having made an error of logic in the preamble leading up to it. (Or alternatively, you've spun the preamble in a very Sir Humphrey way so you can ask the question without having adequately proved the contention in the preamble).

Your flawed logic appears to run like this:

- A response to school shootings has been to allow teachers (and presumably other staff) to be armed on campus.

- Many teachers do not wish to be armed on campus.

- This means that many teachers will not be in a position to stop a shooter.

- This means that arming teachers is not going to be completely effective.

- Therefore allowing teachers to be armed is not a solution.

The flaw in the argument is that you imply that this approach is worthless because it is not completely effective, and this seems to be a common position from both sides of the political divide on many issues. It forces extremes and is ultimately not useful in a discussion, but might score points in a debate, which is also all about posture and "winning" from a political perspective, and has nothing to do with developing either understanding of a problem, nor solving it.

 

[Murph]

I want schools and other places hardened enough that as soon as a shooter shows up they assume room temperature.  If they are dead, they cannot harm folks.  

[rmgill]

You cannot prevent shooters. You can however stop them sooner/faster if the armed people able to intercept them are there already. 
 

If we require every solution to be 100% effective then no solution is going to work. 

[rmgill]

32 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Clearly the former was letting his emotions get to him and the latter was just living in fantasy land to think we have enough clear evidence to show that's the best solution or even a viable one (again, given who goes into teaching you're not going to have many volunteer to carry guns as we've seen even in Texas).

So... what's the answer?

Disarming everyone isn't the answer. Screamy congressman still has his own armed security if he wants it. 

You want solutions? 

Try:

1. putting recidivist violent criminals in prison and keeping them there. 
2. effecting a better system for involuntary commitment. Simply taking a crazy murderous person's guns away is fucking absurd. Are they a danger to others? Yes? Then act like it. 
But you better not make it such a flexible system that you can involuntarily commit anyone because some random person says that they are crazy. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by rmgill

[Skywalkre]

42 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Disarming everyone isn't the answer.

I'm not calling for that.  I'm not seeing that from folks who have moved past the emotion and are trying to discuss the issue honestly.  That notion is a knee-jerk strawman that Rs seem to throw out to dissuade any further discussion on the matter.

44 minutes ago, rmgill said:

You want solutions? 

Try:

1. putting recidivist violent criminals in prison and keeping them there.

Wouldn't have mattered in many of these mass shootings.  Just like many gun control advocates are pushing solutions that wouldn't have impacted the crimes in question this is the same thing.

45 minutes ago, rmgill said:

2. effecting a better system for involuntary commitment. Simply taking a crazy murderous person's guns away is fucking absurd. Are they a danger to others? Yes? Then act like it. 
But you better not make it such a flexible system that you can involuntarily commit anyone because some random person says that they are crazy. 

That will cost money... a lot of it.  I'm in full agreement with everything in this point... but good luck getting Rs to spend the money.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

I'm not calling for that. 

The Democrats screaming about gun control are. IT's their end goal. They've said so. That they can't get it right now is irrelevant. 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

I'm not seeing that from folks who have moved past the emotion and are trying to discuss the issue honestly.

Ok. So who are these people then? 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

That notion is a knee-jerk strawman that Rs seem to throw out to dissuade any further discussion on the matter.

It's not a straw man when democrats categorically state what they want. We've been able to see it in effect for decades in places like New York. Take a handgun you can legally carry to New York on your own state's license. I dare you. 

That's no straw man. It's not knee jerk, it's citation of bloody facts. 
 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

Wouldn't have mattered in many of these mass shootings.

A great many of the bulk of what is considered a mass shooting is in fact gang related shootings. Those are recidivist, violent felons as a rule. That would in fact help in those. 
 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

  Just like many gun control advocates are pushing solutions that wouldn't have impacted the crimes in question this is the same thing.

That's because you're fixated on the crazy dude with a gun who's looking for suicide by cop. If you look at the more comprehensive list that is used to inflate the numbers, which are invariably gang related, it would in fact help.


Here's that expansive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2023


If you're talking about the 6 incidents so far in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
Well.....2 out of 6 are in the past violent known, but not convicted. 1 more (2 actors) are in fact obviously past felons. 

3 of the 6 is pretty good actually. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Covenant_School_shooting
We have no record on the Hale.  But arguably mentally ill. So fits into the second category. Just not rated as significantly mentally ill. 

For the Michigan State Uni shooting, Anthony McRae had a past felony that was pled to a misdemeanor. He'd been making threats since 2020. Kinda an edge for my contention. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Michigan_State_University_shooting

For the Half Moon Bay incident, Zhao was 66 and was very atpical for mass murder shooters. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings

For the 2023 Monterey Park shooting Tran didn't have a very typical record for someone committing mass murder. Also elderly (72), kind of an outlier of outliers. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Monterey_Park_shooting

For the Goshen Shootings, I'll put money on Uriarte and Beard having violent past felonies. Right in the center of what I stated as a solution for recidivist felons. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Goshen_shooting

Arguable that something should have been done about Michael Haight. Recidivist DV issues that were not acted upon. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_the_Haight_family

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

That will cost money... a lot of it.  I'm in full agreement with everything in this point... but good luck getting Rs to spend the money.

No kidding. But do you think gun control of people who haven't done anything wrong at all is free? 

The ball is in the court of the D's to actually do something about mental illness too. But it ALSO means crafting better laws to allow commitment. As it stands now, violent criminals aren't even being detained. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by rmgill

[AETiglathPZ]

The night before in Tennessee, 6 girls between 1 and 18 years of age died in a car accident. Not one politician has expressed outrage or proposed a ban on high carrying capacity vehicles.

6 girls, including 1-year-old, killed in Tennessee highway car crash (nbcnews.com)

[R011]

3 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Most schools, even in Texas, are still soft targets.  From what news reports are showing only a small number of districts in Texas have faculty willing to or take advantage of the ability to carry on campus.  This shouldn't be surprising given what your average teacher is like even in a red state.

Even then we've had shootings at schools with police present.  So to say having an armed presence will deter clearly isn't always the case.  I think it's safe to say arming staff hasn't been shown to be a deterrence as much as these incidents are just still a very rare thing even with the massive rise we've seen over the last two decades.

The lack of any meaningful discussion is frustrating.  There was a clip a few days after this incident showing two Congressman going at it.  The D was screaming about letting kids die or something and the R was just saying we need to arm everyone and we'll be fine.  Clearly the former was letting his emotions get to him and the latter was just living in fantasy land to think we have enough clear evidence to show that's the best solution or even a viable one (again, given who goes into teaching you're not going to have many volunteer to carry guns as we've seen even in Texas).

So... what's the answer?

The answer is just live with it*.   The chances your kids will be the victims of a spree shooter are still very, very small.  The chances they'll be victims of serious violent crime depend on the location of the school - if it's not an inner city schoool, they're reasonably safe.

 

*  OK, things like active shooter drills, better locks and maintenance of them on classsrooms and perimeter doors, seccurity guards and/or police resource officer are helpful.  Allowing qualified staff to concealed carry should also help.  Competent police resonse is very important.  These measures should save lives, but won't prevent lunatics froim acting out.

Edited April 3, 2023 by R011

[AETiglathPZ]

Do we really want teachers to be armed? What prevents a teacher from being a killer?

List of school shootings in the United States (before 2000) - Wikipedia

August 16, 1856- The schoolmaster warned students not to harm his tame sparrow, threatening death. One of the boys stepped on the bird and killed it. When the boy returned to school, the master took the boy into a private room and strangled him. The boy's father upon hearing what had happened went to the school and shot the schoolmaster dead.

December 22, 1881-School teacher Charles J. Gregory shot at a pupil at close range because he refused to write on a slate. The bullet missed the boy. The teacher was arrested.

[R011]

40 minutes ago, AETiglathPZ said:

Do we really want teachers to be armed? What prevents a teacher from being a killer?

 

The same things that generally stop them now.  

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, AETiglathPZ said:

Do we really want teachers to be armed? What prevents a teacher from being a killer?

List of school shootings in the United States (before 2000) - Wikipedia

August 16, 1856- The schoolmaster warned students not to harm his tame sparrow, threatening death. One of the boys stepped on the bird and killed it. When the boy returned to school, the master took the boy into a private room and strangled him. The boy's father upon hearing what had happened went to the school and shot the schoolmaster dead.

December 22, 1881-School teacher Charles J. Gregory shot at a pupil at close range because he refused to write on a slate. The bullet missed the boy. The teacher was arrested.

What stops school principles from killing all the students by blowing up the school? 

Hopefully you've screened out those folks because there's a lot more than just firearms that can be used to commit murder. 

What just happened in Brazil? With a hand axe?