Mass Shooting

[Ivanhoe]

4 hours ago, Murph said:

A very true headline, even it if is the Bee:  https://babylonbee.com/news/fbi-vows-to-get-to-the-bottom-of-what-christians-did-to-provoke-attack

The Bee is uniformly 6-18 months ahead of the news cycle. 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Potentially also killing the shooter may be a problem in itself. No shooter expects to actually make it out alive. So if they die, they don't really see themselves losing anything. 

They don't tend to give you much choice. What do you expect police or other folks to do? Appeal to their humanity? In the most recent case, she shot 3 9 yo children, 2 women and a black man. 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

In Israel, terrorists are given long prison sentences to prevent them the martyrdom they seek.

I've seen enough raw footage of Pally Terrorist and how they got the eternal dirt nap at the hands of Israelis. Hell, I worked with a dude who was in the IDF and who shot a woman who was teaching kids how to sling stones at Israelis. 
 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Obviously most US mass shooters aren't Shahids. But is there any psychological common ground that could be used against them as a deterrent? 

Oh sweet summer child. 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

And I just recently heard an explanation about the system of private prisons in the US. Sounds like a very counter-productive method that only increases crime.

The private prison system is just outsourcing. There are issues there but the real issue is the mental health system that was shut down by Kennedy in the 60s. 
 

 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Given the long history of violence from the American left, I think it would only be fair to have a conservative POTUS sign an executive order precluding the issuance of driver's licenses (Waukesha), ownership of guns (James T. Hodgkinson), and presence on airline no-fly lists for all registered Democrats. 

It's simply a mental health thing. Right?

 

In this case the issue of mental health is a 115,000 volt over head wire that they will not touch. The shooter was a disturbed person who was seeking mental health. Do not expect to see calls for this as an example of what sort of mental health issues should be barriers to gun possession. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

They don't tend to give you much choice. What do you expect police or other folks to do? Appeal to their humanity? In the most recent case, she shot 3 9 yo children, 2 women and a black man. 

Shoot the arms and/or legs. Anything that doesn't kill, but does temporarily neutralize and makes life a nightmare for the receiving end.

 

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

I've seen enough raw footage of Pally Terrorist and how they got the eternal dirt nap at the hands of Israelis. Hell, I worked with a dude who was in the IDF and who shot a woman who was teaching kids how to sling stones at Israelis. 

And so, in the end, we circle back to my original question: "Why did you bring up Israel, if it's of no relevance to the discussion?"

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

Oh sweet summer child

Guess what, Shahids are also deranged people which on the surface it seems they're beyond reason. But in the war on terror, we do find ways to deter them. They don't care about themselves but do often care about their families, so we destroy his home, confiscate the terror stipends, 

Maybe regarding Americans, the right way would not be to push on them, but rather the opposite - let them get counceling, let them vent some way before they start shooting people. And maybe, just maybe, pass legislation that deals with their grievances if they are legitimate.

That trans girl, or trans boy, idk I don't understand the exact terminology, maybe she felt hate at school. Maybe she felt hated and oppressed by a government. The former can be partially solved by training school staff to not only teach, but observe students' social interactions at least on school grounds. Maybe disconnect their studies and everyday life from the school itself, perhaps via a hybrid method - some days you go to school, some days you just watch downloadable courses at your own pace.

And lastly, when it comes to grievances related to the government and not the everyday social interactions, pass legislation that is more tolerant. Honestly, I don't see why people are so afraid of the LGBT, but not afraid of corn. It's simple genetics. Imagine being born gay and later find out the government itself thinks you deserve fewer rights because of that, or none at all.

[sunday]

[bojan]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Shoot the arms and/or legs. ...

Such naivety and ignorance...

It is hard enough to hit someone anywhere in combat situation, especially for cops who are generally, all over the world barely trained* in the use of firearms. Going for arms/legs would be a height of the stupidity. Let me tell you a dirty secret - in most cases where "police shot someone in the legs" they did not actually aim for legs, they just happened to have hit them there by sheer dumb (un)luck.

*And highly trained people tend to go for center mass. At least Israeli ones have a history of doing so

Edited March 30, 2023 by bojan

[Wobbly Head]

15 minutes ago, bojan said:

Such naivety and ignorance...

It is hard enough to hit someone anywhere in combat situation, especially for cops who are generally, all over the world barely trained* in the use of firearms. Going for arms/legs would be a height of the stupidity. Let me tell you a dirty secret - in most cases where "police shot someone in the legs" they did not actually aim for legs, they just happened to have hit them there by sheer dumb (un)luck.

*And highly trained people tend to go for center mass. At least Israeli ones have a history of doing so

It's hard enough to just hit centre of mass with a pistol on a range at 25M than try to shoot someones leg. Plus there is this thing called the femoral artery in the leg that means leg shots can be just as deadly as body shot. Plus another dirty secret most cops do not shoot more than needed just to pass the proficiency tests very few of them actively practice shooting.

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Shoot the arms and/or legs. Anything that doesn't kill, but does temporarily neutralize and makes life a nightmare for the receiving end.

This is illustrative of a deep lack of understanding of how deadly force works. 

Shooting arms and legs is hollywood stuff. Not reality. You shoot to stop the target. Center of mass. Best hit percentage in the emergency situation and best chance of causing enough catestrophic injury to put them down and stop them being a threat. 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

And so, in the end, we circle back to my original question: "Why did you bring up Israel, if it's of no relevance to the discussion?"

Because you're clearly basing your assumptions on your own native security situation and not on anything larger or more expansive. Your above "shoot the arms and/or legs" is illustrative of the ignorance and short sightedness. Perhaps the number of other posters who criticize your "Shoot the arms and/or legs" comments will provide enough of a clue. . 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Guess what, Shahids are also deranged people which on the surface it seems they're beyond reason. But in the war on terror, we do find ways to deter them. They don't care about themselves but do often care about their families, so we destroy his home, confiscate the terror stipends, 

See, you can't do that in a civil situation. Collective punishment is also something of a problem. I think Isreal's policy is right on the edge. Generally I think you guys are doing steering the best course there, BUT that solution is totally untenable here. 

 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Maybe regarding Americans, the right way would not be to push on them, but rather the opposite - let them get counceling, let them vent some way before they start shooting people. And maybe, just maybe, pass legislation that deals with their grievances if they are legitimate.

Let them get counseling? They're often times getting counseling. They need more. Arguably once they've reached the point of mass murder, involuntary commitment is in order. Many of those smass shooters are on SSRIs or other drugs so they're already seeing some kind of shrink. 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

That trans girl, or trans boy, idk I don't understand the exact terminology, maybe she felt hate at school.

She was a tomboy who was pushed into being a boy. She was 28. The school had 9 year olds that she murdered. Whomever harassed her was not those 9 year olds. Whomever she was hated by wasn't those 9 year olds. She hadn't been to that school in several years. 

You know who's doing a lot of that pushing for transgender shifts? Psychologists. 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

And lastly, when it comes to grievances related to the government and not the everyday social interactions, pass legislation that is more tolerant. Honestly, I don't see why people are so afraid of the LGBT, but not afraid of corn. It's simple genetics. Imagine being born gay and later find out the government itself thinks you deserve fewer rights because of that, or none at all.

What legislation do you think is being passed? The ones currently in question are prohibiting the display/teaching of lewd content to children. Is pornography legal to teach to elementary or middle school kids in Israel? Somehow I doubt it. 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, sunday said:

That's a professor who teaches Film, Culture and English at Wayne State University. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by rmgill

[DKTanker]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

Which raises the question, will there be a trans day of rage and vengeance on Saturday?  

[Mighty_Zuk]

54 minutes ago, rmgill said:

This is illustrative of a deep lack of understanding of how deadly force works. 

Shooting arms and legs is hollywood stuff. Not reality. You shoot to stop the target. Center of mass. Best hit percentage in the emergency situation and best chance of causing enough catestrophic injury to put them down and stop them being a threat. 

When a shooting attack occurs in Israel, many times the terrorist is shot to death. But if he's just neutralized and not killed, cops won't shoot him again. 

This isn't to say that in an emergency where every second counts, you take the liberty to aim. Only when an opportunity presents itself, such as when the target is distracted with something else.

As I wasn't a combat soldier, I received only a fairly minimal rifleman qualification, allowing me to do the occasional guard duties. Even with that minimal qualification, we were expected to shoot close to a target's feet as a warning, or shoot the tires on a vehicle. Again, expected to TRY, not to succeed.

I know quite well even with my minimal training that trying to shoot legs or arms even at short ranges is extremely difficult especially in such short engagements. Hence, the point is not to actually shoot arms or legs, but rather just spitballing on my part on what could deter a mass shooter - something none has actually expressed a single idea on so far. I presume because there doesn't seem to be a common denominator between at least a majority of shooters, or one that cannot be matched with a deterrent?

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Because you're clearly basing your assumptions on your own native security situation and not on anything larger or more expansive. Your above "shoot the arms and/or legs" is illustrative of the ignorance and short sightedness. Perhaps the number of other posters who criticize your "Shoot the arms and/or legs" comments will provide enough of a clue

My assumptions are irrelevant. They are not for the sake of debating them, but to generate a debate. And perhaps you wouldn't fall back to the "what about country X" argument if you actually tried to think about the questions I raise?

There IS a systematic approach that could substantially reduce mass shooting attacks, but none wants to think about what it might be.

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

See, you can't do that in a civil situation. Collective punishment is also something of a problem. I think Isreal's policy is right on the edge. Generally I think you guys are doing steering the best course there, BUT that solution is totally untenable here. 

That's the point of an example. It's just there for the sake of showing a solution exists, just needs to be found.

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Let them get counseling? They're often times getting counseling. They need more. Arguably once they've reached the point of mass murder, involuntary commitment is in order. Many of those smass shooters are on SSRIs or other drugs so they're already seeing some kind of shrink. 

How much is "many"? Is it tens of %? Or only a few %?

Is the counceling effective in some way, or is it just the bare minimum done, with a perscription given without actual diagnosis? I think with the number of mass shooting events, psychologists would actually learn to pick up on the telltale signs.

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

She was a tomboy who was pushed into being a boy. She was 28. The school had 9 year olds that she murdered. Whomever harassed her was not those 9 year olds. Whomever she was hated by wasn't those 9 year olds. She hadn't been to that school in several years. 

You know who's doing a lot of that pushing for transgender shifts? Psychologists. 

Okay so that makes her case far less related to depression from bullying due to transgenderism, and more about general mental instability with no clear target or grievance.

But let's not blame transgenderism on this or similar cases. 

Being born an LGBT is still not a universally recognized right, not even in the US. And even when the full legal framework exists to accept people born that way, they tend to suffer from depression anyway due to confusion about their body, their future, the imperfections of that procedure and the resulting over-lack of confidence, as well as general reactions from other people.

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

What legislation do you think is being passed? The ones currently in question are prohibiting the display/teaching of lewd content to children. Is pornography legal to teach to elementary or middle school kids in Israel? Somehow I doubt it. 

I've learned to be skeptical about such statements from my years watching Russian news. Every time they spoke about people teaching their kids to be gay and forcing them to be of a different gender, or teachers telling everyone to be gay and controlling their minds, it's usually something very innocent like a teacher teaching about the existence of LGBT, or a parent just being generally unbothered by his child choosing to crossdress.

So, is pornography really shown at schools?

In Israel BTW sex-ed teachers do talk about pornography, usually about its negative effects, for like 1 class (sex ed is only on 10th grade I think).

Regarding legislation, I don't know what there is in the US, hence my generalized statements.

Is same-sex marriage allowed in every state? Is conversion therapy universally banned? Is gender dysphoria a universally recognized condition? Is there still hidden discrimination and are there mechanisms in place to counter it?

[rmgill]

21 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

Which raises the question, will there be a trans day of rage and vengeance on Saturday?  

The choice of April 1st is amusing...

[Markus Becker]

BTW, that is a scope with windage and elevation adjustment on the rifle!? And the rifle looks short. Is that normal. With the ranges in cities I was expecting red dots with magnifiers.

[rmgill]

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

When a shooting attack occurs in Israel, many times the terrorist is shot to death. But if he's just neutralized and not killed, cops won't shoot him again. 

This isn't to say that in an emergency where every second counts, you take the liberty to aim. Only when an opportunity presents itself, such as when the target is distracted with something else.

If the're shooting at you or another, you don't fart around aiming for their gun hand. More so, you have to often worry about where that bullet is going to go AFTER it passes through the hand/arm/leg. 

There's a reason that JHP are used in civilian settings more than ball ammo. 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

As I wasn't a combat soldier, I received only a fairly minimal rifleman qualification, allowing me to do the occasional guard duties. Even with that minimal qualification, we were expected to shoot close to a target's feet as a warning, or shoot the tires on a vehicle. Again, expected to TRY, not to succeed.

Warning shots in a civil setting are HIGHLY inadvisable. Where's that bullet going after it bounces? Into the neighborhood beyond? Who's it going to possibly kill? 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I know quite well even with my minimal training that trying to shoot legs or arms even at short ranges is extremely difficult especially in such short engagements. Hence, the point is not to actually shoot arms or legs, but rather just spitballing on my part on what could deter a mass shooter - something none has actually expressed a single idea on so far. I presume because there doesn't seem to be a common denominator between at least a majority of shooters, or one that cannot be matched with a deterrent?

In a combat situation some of that may be valid as ROE. In a civilian law enforcement situation, when someone is shooting at you, while they are shooting at you and presenting a threat, you have legal cause to shoot to center of mass. 

Using deadly force like on arms or legs (which IS deadly force, despite the lower chance of death due to such GSWs) when there's not a prevailing urgency/justification FOR deadly force is what we call unlawful use of deadly force. That will get you charged, likely sent to prison AND likely sued into financial ruin. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

My assumptions are irrelevant. They are not for the sake of debating them, but to generate a debate. And perhaps you wouldn't fall back to the "what about country X" argument if you actually tried to think about the questions I raise?

Assumptions can be right or wrong. Failing to moderate or modify them when presented with counter arguments is where one gets into trouble. 

What about Country X also helps you think about the situation and how it may differ. It also provides a plane of reference to understand, geometrically & metaphorically speaking what the coordinate differences are in the settings so to speak

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

There IS a systematic approach that could substantially reduce mass shooting attacks, but none wants to think about what it might be.

Many folks HAVE been thinking about what it is. Invariably it involves greater degrees of authority to commit people against their will. The problem is that the left in our country just uses them as a reason to effect greater gun control even when the controls they propose wouldn't have done squat to stop the attack in question. 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Is the counceling effective in some way, or is it just the bare minimum done, with a perscription given without actual diagnosis? I think with the number of mass shooting events, psychologists would actually learn to pick up on the telltale signs.

Sure a diagnosis is given. It's quick, it's done on the phone over a computer screen and it's short often times. Looking through a number of the mass shooters over the past few years, one can see numerous instances where someone HAD reported that they were a danger and noone did anything in the legal/law enforcement community. In part because there's a gap of men in white suits coming to take people away went away decades ago. 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Okay so that makes her case far less related to depression from bullying due to transgenderism, and more about general mental instability with no clear target or grievance.

 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

But let's not blame transgenderism on this or similar cases. 

It's mental illness that is at issue. 

Transgenderism is a mental illness, it's not generally one assocaited with such homicidal acts, BUT there's a big trend to attribute any sort of constraints on the teaching of things to children with a very lewd context as an attack on transgenders themselves, as in deadly attacks, which don't actually happen as often. 

I say this as someone who's nominally friendly with and has participated in the past with the Pink Pistols and has submitted my info to Operation Blazing Sword. The local Pink Pistols chapter has waxed and waned based on the hyperbole of who the current president is. Atlanta's chapter was very active under Bush, then waned under Obama to barely any activity, then under Trump it was active again and now, again, the Atlanta Chapter is quiet. There's a lot of perception of risk without a lot of fundamental actual risk in the community. 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Being born an LGBT is still not a universally recognized right, not even in the US.

Being born LGBT isn't a right? What? 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

And even when the full legal framework exists to accept people born that way, they tend to suffer from depression anyway due to confusion about their body, their future, the imperfections of that procedure and the resulting over-lack of confidence, as well as general reactions from other people.

They suffer from depression because they're rudderless and are looking for something to fix it. Cutting your dick/balls off doesn't fix that. It actually makes it worse and increases risks of many other problems. The Doctor who developed this procedure has stopped doing it. 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I've learned to be skeptical about such statements from my years watching Russian news. Every time they spoke about people teaching their kids to be gay and forcing them to be of a different gender, or teachers telling everyone to be gay and controlling their minds, it's usually something very innocent like a teacher teaching about the existence of LGBT, or a parent just being generally unbothered by his child choosing to crossdress.

 

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

So, is pornography really shown at schools?

The LGBTQ stuff is in fact illicit and lewd. There's been cases of folks unhappy about it reading the material in school board meetings and being told it was too racy for the meeting of adults to hear. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11803723/Sixth-grade-student-stands-Maine-school-board-meeting-read-sexually-explicit-book.html

16 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Is same-sex marriage allowed in every state? Is conversion therapy universally banned? Is gender dysphoria a universally recognized condition? Is there still hidden discrimination and are there mechanisms in place to counter it?

Gender dysphoria is being normalized. That's why the left is pushing drag queen story hour and extolling the virtues of drag shows for children. 
 

 

[rmgill]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/18/video-of-drag-queen-gyrating-next-to-child-sparks-backlash/
 

 

[Sardaukar]

AFAIK, Israelis use scoped .22 in riots to pop violent rioters into legs. 

https://ruger1022.com/blog/israeli-ruger-1022/

You don't always have to shoot to kill. That US police seem to be very badly trained and cannot shoot shit is their problem. It is not a global problem. 

Training time is telling, in Finland 3.5 yrs, in USA often 6 months. 

 

[rmgill]

10 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

BTW, that is a scope with windage and elevation adjustment on the rifle!? And the rifle looks short. Is that normal. With the ranges in cities I was expecting red dots with magnifiers.

Supposedly a Vortex LPVO. Hard to say what the length is. Shorter length rifles are workable. LPVO's give you the advantage of 1 power for close up (see the magnification throw arm) and 4-6-8 power magnification as you may need depending on the model. For urban work, a shorter rifle works well and still has the oomph to reach out to longer ranges.  I'm sure E5M and others can make more definitive and precise points in this regard. 

The Title is not what they actually say. It's sarcasm. 

 

[rmgill]

7 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

AFAIK, Israelis use scoped .22 in riots to pop violent rioters into legs.

That would probably be a problem in the US. 

7 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

You don't always have to shoot to kill.

Under our legal system shooting to NOT kill would be exceedingly dubious and land you in all sorts of legal problems. 
 

7 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

That US police seem to be very badly trained and cannot shoot shit is their problem. It is not a global problem. 

Training time is telling, in Finland 3.5 yrs, in USA often 6 months. 

It also varies widely by agency and officers within the agencies. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by rmgill

[Markus Becker]

8 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

AFAIK, Israelis use scoped .22 in riots to pop violent rioters into legs. 

https://ruger1022.com/blog/israeli-ruger-1022/

You don't always have to shoot to kill. That US police seem to be very badly trained and cannot shoot shit is their problem. It is not a global problem. 

 

 

Cops usually do that when the perp has a firearm. 

[Sardaukar]

1 minute ago, Markus Becker said:

Cops usually do that when the perp has a firearm. 

Of course.

Though last police shooting just recently was that perp looked like having firearm, was still shot into leg. Turned out he had airsoft gun (those are problem in sense that they often cannot be distinguished from real firearm).

In USA guy would have probably been drilled 20+ times or something...

[rmgill]

12 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Of course.

Though last police shooting just recently was that perp looked like having firearm, was still shot into leg. Turned out he had airsoft gun (those are problem in sense that they often cannot be distinguished from real firearm).

In USA guy would have probably been drilled 20+ times or something...

Depends on if he was pointing at people and shooting or not. 

The thing is, people here have guns, lots of guns. Some have armored vehicles 🙂 . Just having a gun isn't grounds for being shot. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by rmgill

[Sardaukar]

Just now, rmgill said:

Depends on if he was pointing at people and shooting or not. 

The thing is, people here have guns, lots of guns. Some have armored vehicles 🙂 . Just having a gun isn't grounds for being shot. 

Yea, I know situation in USA is different. And you have lots of people with guns, so police will by default think you are armed.

We also have lots of guns, but it's rarity that someone commits shooting crime. They are getting more frequent though.

But even here it is not a good idea to point a gun at police, be it fake, replica or whatnot. then they'll act in self-defence. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

31 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Warning shots in a civil setting are HIGHLY inadvisable. Where's that bullet going after it bounces? Into the neighborhood beyond? Who's it going to possibly kill? 

I assume in the grand calculus, it's better to have a 1% chance to kill someone innocent by accident, than to surely kill someone I am 80% likely to misinterpret as a threat.

Army regulations say warning shots should be done while aiming at some upward angle, but in an urban setting the order is to aim low in the hope that whatever bounces off the ground is much less lethal, and its path more predictable (easier to compensate for property damage that way). Close to residential areas, I assume the expectation is to avoid shooting unless we shoot to kill, but they're never clear about such stuff.

37 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Assumptions can be right or wrong. Failing to moderate or modify them when presented with counter arguments is where one gets into trouble. 

What about Country X also helps you think about the situation and how it may differ. It also provides a plane of reference to understand, geometrically & metaphorically speaking what the coordinate differences are in the settings so to speak

Thing is, I already have an opinion on how things should be in Israel. I do not have an opinion on the US.

45 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Being born LGBT isn't a right? What? 

In the sense that there shouldn't be any legal discrimination. If someone is LGBT, and he sees legal discrimination, he'd be inclined to believe he's being punished for something he was born with, hence he cannot control.

 

46 minutes ago, rmgill said:

They suffer from depression because they're rudderless and are looking for something to fix it. Cutting your dick/balls off doesn't fix that. It actually makes it worse and increases risks of many other problems. The Doctor who developed this procedure has stopped doing it. 

Gender change procedures are still in their infancy. Right now it's best to do them at a young age before puberty for maximum results, but that doesn't leave enough time for a kid to truly understand his sexuality when he's literally at a stage before sexual development. 

We should just let medicine develop and not ban it before progress is made.

49 minutes ago, rmgill said:

The LGBTQ stuff is in fact illicit and lewd. There's been cases of folks unhappy about it reading the material in school board meetings and being told it was too racy for the meeting of adults to hear. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11803723/Sixth-grade-student-stands-Maine-school-board-meeting-read-sexually-explicit-book.html

That is just fucked up. But we shouldn't just rail on the entire LGBT community for that. A person who thinks it's legitimate giving a child a sexually explicit book on LGBT is just as likely to think it's legitimate to give any other form of pornographic book.

 

[Murph]

15 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

How about Ashley Biden's diary? 

I forgot about that one, that shows Joe as a child molester.....

[Murph]

Gays against Groomers, is a great group, and banned, defunded by Patreon, etc.  Why?  Because they call out the Gay child molesting groups, which do not represent the vast majority of gay people.  But unfortunately the Gay child molesters have become the face of the Gay movement.  

The Atlanta gay child molesters: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/miacathell/2023/03/30/zulock-civil-forfeiture-hearing-march-10-n2621123