Mass Shooting

[Paul G.]

 

 

 

 

It's a shame that the ideological split in the US prevents any level-headed discussion of any ways to deal with this type of occurrence.

It's a shame that the ideological split in the US prevents and level-headed discussion about anything.

It's hard to have a discussion with people screaming that you're a murderer and care more about your guns than children's lives. So far we've been able to avoid that in this topic. If it were easy to identify future shooters, that would be easy, but it's not.

Its also hard to have a discussion with people refusing to even discuss rational measures to address the mass proliferation of firearms in this country advocated for by lobbyists, funded by the gun industry.

 

Biometric safeties can go a long way to preventing some forms of gun violence. But like the auto industry, gun manufacturers would need to be compelled to take action. Lawsuits would help.

 

You insist behavioral health is the issue? Fine then we need a National health database and a firearm registry that can be matched up to determine risk. But HIPPA would prevent that.

 

Regulating firearms based on firepower index instead of random cosmetic attributes could be a way to go. Expanding the NFA to incorporate those guns above a designated index.

 

It took us hundreds of years to get here, the fix isn't going to occur overnight. Its going to take generations.

[Panzermann]

one of americas favourite pasttimes it seems:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2019-mass-shootings-there-have-been-more-mass-shootings-than-days-this-year/

 

[FlyingCanOpener]

...except the definition media uses for mass shootings differ from what the common portrayal is.

 

• Doofus gets high and drunk and drops a magazine outside his house in South Chicago and wounds 4 people in the process? Mass shooting.
• 2 Hispanic gangs get in a gunfight in Santa Fe and 8 people get killed/wounded? Mass shooting.
• Meth deal in rural West Virginia goes bad and 4 people get shot? Mass shooting.

 

None of these events would be reported in the news apart from a blurb, but they're tossed into the mass shooting category and purported as the same as El Paso and Dayton to pump up the numbers as opposed to pointing out how few instances there are of a crazy nutter/domestic terrorist shooting up a public place--though the fact that they occur is an issue that should be properly addressed.

 

We had the exact same articles when apparently there were 3 dozen school shootings 2 years ago, but when you dug into the numbers one of them counted was literally someone cited for pointing a low-powered air rifle toward a school building.

Edited August 5, 2019 by FlyingCanOpener

[sunday]

...except the definition media uses for mass shootings differ from what the common portrayal is.

• Doofus gets high and drunk and drops a magazine outside his house in South Chicago and wounds 4 people in the process? Mass shooting.
• 2 Hispanic gangs get in a gunfight in Santa Fe and 8 people get killed/wounded? Mass shooting.
• Meth deal in rural West Virginia goes bad and 4 people get shot? Mass shooting.

None of these events would be reported in the news apart from a blurb, but they're tossed into the mass shooting category and purported as the same as El Paso and Dayton to pump up the numbers as opposed to pointing out how few instances there are of a crazy nutter/domestic terrorist shooting up a public place--though the fact that they occur is an issue that should be properly addressed.

 

We had the exact same articles when apparently there were 3 dozen school shootings 2 years ago, but when you dug into the numbers one of them counted was literally someone cited for pointing a low-powered air rifle toward a school building.

 

Also, mass shootings are bad and demand legislative changes.

 

Mass knifings, mass acid attacks, and mass tramplings using motor vehicles only demand serenity in order to not look like racists. Ban of cutlery, also.

 

I felt more safe in Colorado travelling with a friend I knew he was packing than in Virginia at night without friendly weapon-holders, watching the antics of some residents that looked like out of a rap video clip.

 

Then, there were the Jamaicans junkies in East London near Maxx's (Rest in peace) place. Fortunately they were scared of seeing someone wearing sunglasses at night, as my clear prescriptions broke during Tankfest.

Edited August 5, 2019 by sunday

[Paul G.]

...except the definition media uses for mass shootings differ from what the common portrayal is.

 

• Doofus gets high and drunk and drops a magazine outside his house in South Chicago and wounds 4 people in the process? Mass shooting.
• 2 Hispanic gangs get in a gunfight in Santa Fe and 8 people get killed/wounded? Mass shooting.
• Meth deal in rural West Virginia goes bad and 4 people get shot? Mass shooting.

None of these events would be reported in the news apart from a blurb, but they're tossed into the mass shooting category and purported as the same as El Paso and Dayton to pump up the numbers as opposed to pointing out how few instances there are of a crazy nutter/domestic terrorist shooting up a public place--though the fact that they occur is an issue that should be properly addressed.

 

We had the exact same articles when apparently there were 3 dozen school shootings 2 years ago, but when you dug into the numbers one of them counted was literally someone cited for pointing a low-powered air rifle toward a school building.

So what definition would you use?

[Paul G.]

It doesn't take significant mental health indicators to get us to a mass shooting.

 

1. A feeling of despair or hopelessness. Can be environmentally or physiologically induced.

 

2. A lack of coping methods, or support relationships. Isolation is a key factor.

 

2. Blame for ones hopelessness on others, leading to hate, fueled and shaped by validating information. Typically in the form of online propaganda and rhetoric.

 

These are as valid valid for the recent spat of Ethno Nationalist perps as with "muslim" extremists. The factors are the same...replace "infidels" with "immigrants".

[urbanoid]

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

[urbanoid]

Meanwhile I'm going to enjoy 4chan while I can.

[Paul G.]

I actually agree with this:

 

This is one price we are paying for the decline in what the late sociologist Peter Berger called the mediating institutions that help individuals form cultural and social attachments. These are churches, business and social clubs like the Rotary, charitable groups, even bowling leagues, and especially the family. Government programs can never replace these as protectors of troubled young people.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-killers-in-our-midst-11564958792?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/484TXv397M

[MiloMorai]

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

Maybe because back then there was winners and losers. Now everyone gets a participation medal and they are unable to cope.

[Paul G.]

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

See my post above. It plays a major role. But saying "not guns" is irrational, as it absolutely is a component to the violence. One, as an inanimate object, is much easier to regulate than human behavior.

[Panzermann]

 

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

See my post above. It plays a major role. But saying "not guns" is irrational, as it absolutely is a component to the violence. One, as an inanimate object, is much easier to regulate than human behavior.

 

 

Humans are the problem. A firearm is most of the time a rusting piece of steel collecting dust. If there are no firearms, then they use knives, hammers, bare hands, cars...

 

 

So, why do people feel the need to do such horrible things to their fellow humans ?

[rmgill]

Come on Ryan, that only happens in Hollywood movies. Oh, the vehicles are used often enough. From the occasions when its happened here (and in New York when it happened) they are usually stopped when the vehicle hits a bollard or some other obstruction. Ive yet to read of a Lethal Weapon style headshot to take a driver down in mid flight, and even if you did, you still have an out of control vehicle which is going to anywhere it likes.

That is my point stuart. Someone in a moving vehicle is a much harder more fleeting target.

 

 

I said earlier, I dont mind you owning a gun. I do mind the neighbour who might go off on one for not trimming the hedge owning one.

I'm not afraid of my neighbor's going off. You really need to raise your opinion of your fellow man.

 

 

Which suggests to me there needs to be better oversight of, and better supervision of who owns guns.

Who get's to decide? People who decide that they don't like someone's off color joke and deem it a crime? Pointing at the UK's current issues with free speech, it's fairly obvious that prior restraint is a very tenuous thing. We don't restrict rights over here without very good reason.

 

A gun to kill a man with a gun is too late. Particularly as the majority of these people are already being dispatched inside of 6 minutes. You want to make sure the guy who wants to use a gun on a crowd is identified early enough to get him off the streets. It was evident a good 20 minutes before the shooting when he posted his manifesto something was going down. Not enough time to do something now, but 10-20 years from now, with intelligent profiling by computers? Perhaps.

 

And yes, im aware thats a contentious view, because Americans are against surveillance as they are against having guns taken away. Im more pragmatic about it, not least because Google and Amazon have those bases covered anyway.

The caveat is that there are people who point to these shooters and in several cases the issue of their nature as a threat WAS raised. Again. And again. And again. It was ignored. The police had been to the Florida Shooter's home what, 50 times and did nothing?

[urbanoid]

You fucked up your society and the result is more violence. To combat violence you need to unfuck the society, then there'll be no need to regulate guns.

[Paul G.]

 

 

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

Maybe because back then there was winners and losers. Now everyone gets a participation medal and they are unable to cope.

I posted here years ago that a study done of Palestinian Terrorists in prison were shown to almost exclusively have issues with their father, either from active abuse or passive neglect. I was mocked here for it by the usual suspects and labeled a terrorist sympathizer.

 

The issue still stands, and I would wager players a role in these men's actions.

[Paul G.]

 

 

 

Were such things happening so often 30, 40, 50 years ago? If not, what has changed? That's the problem that needs to be addressed, not guns.

See my post above. It plays a major role. But saying "not guns" is irrational, as it absolutely is a component to the violence. One, as an inanimate object, is much easier to regulate than human behavior.

Humans are the problem. A firearm is most of the time a rusting piece of steel collecting dust. If there are no firearms, then they use knives, hammers, bare hands, cars...

 

 

So, why do people feel the need to do such horrible things to their fellow humans ?

I agree humans are the issue...but guns are the facilitator. "IF no guns..." correct, but there are plenty of guns.

 

I just explained my thesis in three easy to read points above.

[Paul G.]

You fucked up your society and the result is more violence. To combat violence you need to unfuck the society, then there'll be no need to regulate guns.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But "unfucking" a society takes multiple lines of effort, starting with an acknowledgment that our society is fucked up.

[rmgill]

It will be a tricky thing to identify those who are a threat to themselves and others and need strong intervention while not allowing that to be used to deny innocent people of their rights. What kind of due process can we set up to achieve both ends?

 

For one there has to be an appeal process for the variously proposed red flag laws.

 

 

As it stands it's either a free and clear no limit standpoint or a 100% prohibition due to 'Significant Mental Illness' which is characterized by involuntary commitment.

 

There needs to be something in between that has a shorter term, appealable status that's based on observable acts/behaviors but which is not a long term suspension of rights and which has such an appeal process. It should be understood that such could also push someone over the edge so it should be handled very carefully. How to deal with those who have anosognosia along with their other issues is tricky.

 

Companionably with it, should be a ton of bricks set aside to drop on anyone who abuses such a system in a clear manner.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

[Tim the Tank Nut]

I was working a security and administrative operation at an air show this weekend when this happened.

I didn't have any outside contact with the media and didn't about the attacks until the police at the show began to react much differently. Between the airport police and several jurisdictions of locals there was no shortage of law enforcement.

It was an interesting experience.

There were an enormous amount of firearms present but no issues other than co-ordination.

It seems that the guns used by somewhat normal people were not a threat

[rmgill]

...

Edited August 5, 2019 by rmgill

[Paul G.]

The caveat is that there are people who point to these shooters and in several cases the issue of their nature as a threat WAS raised. Again. And again. And again. It was ignored. The police had been to the Florida Shooter's home what, 50 times and did nothing?

So why did the police do nothing?

[rmgill]

Id argue first and foremost for competence in Government. That has happened in the past, and whilst the past 20 years has been a bit of an up and down, I remain optimistic after Brexit a lot of very incompetent MP are going to be exposed for the charlatans they are. Well, im an optimist.

 

You have to separate Government from functions of Government. I might despise most of what goes on in Whitehall, but I do respect the Military, and I do respect the police. Its not the fault of either that they have no budget to fulfill the functions they have traditionally been tasked with.

Looking at various scandals in the UK, I'm not sure that you're any better off with the career bureaucrats than you are with your MPs Stuart.

 

Here is the problem. You Americans trust INDIVIDUALS to solve problems. What you cant square is that Government is also made up of individuals.

That's just it. We CAN square that. But the individuals get judged for how well they do or how well they don't do. When you have politicians/officials who are judging based on identity and not merit, then yeah, we judge them badly.

 

We have a natural suspicion of how they're going to do things. I think we trust them less than you trust yours but at the same time we expect more out of them and are less satisfied when they fail.

 

 

If they cant solve big problems, why do you think joe blow is going to be any better equipped to deal witht he problems of dealing with domestic terrorism? And he isn't. Even Wyatt Earp went into OK Corral with a team.

The fractious nature of our law enforcement helps that. It's compartmentalized instead of one big top down organization run by the home office.

 

 

 

 

 

I support individualism, and I dont think we do enough of it as we should in this country. I just dont see it as a panacea for all problems is all. If it was, we wouldn't have armies.

Like anything you need enough of it. Not enough B12 and you're going to be weak.

[rmgill]

So why did the police do nothing?

Why do police ever do nothing? Why did the police DC in the case of Warren v DC do nothing?

[Paul G.]

 

It will be a tricky thing to identify those who are a threat to themselves and others and need strong intervention while not allowing that to be used to deny innocent people of their rights. What kind of due process can we set up to achieve both ends?

For one there has to be an appeal process for the variously proposed red flag laws.

 

 

As it stands it's either a free and clear no limit standpoint or a 100% prohibition due to 'Significant Mental Illness' which is characterized by involuntary commitment.

 

There needs to be something in between that has a shorter term, appealable status that's based on observable acts/behaviors but which is not a long term suspension of rights and which has such an appeal process. It should be understood that such could also push someone over the edge so it should be handled very carefully. How to deal with those who have anosognosia along with their other issues is tricky.

 

Companionably with it, should be a ton of bricks set aside to drop on anyone who abuses such a system in a clear manner.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

It doesn't take significant mental health indicators to get us to a mass shooting.

 

1. A feeling of despair or hopelessness. Can be environmentally or physiologically induced.

 

2. A lack of coping methods, or support relationships. Isolation is a key factor.

 

2. Blame for ones hopelessness on others, leading to hate, fueled and shaped by validating information. Typically in the form of online propaganda and rhetoric.

 

These are as valid valid for the recent spat of Ethno Nationalist perps as with "muslim" extremists. The factors are the same...replace "infidels" with "immigrants".

[rmgill]

It doesn't take significant mental health indicators to get us to a mass shooting.

 

1. A feeling of despair or hopelessness. Can be environmentally or physiologically induced.

 

2. A lack of coping methods, or support relationships. Isolation is a key factor.

 

2. Blame for ones hopelessness on others, leading to hate, fueled and shaped by validating information. Typically in the form of online propaganda and rhetoric.

What sort of online propaganda? Would the idea that some on the opposite political aisle are subhuman meet that test?

 

 

These are as valid valid for the recent spat of Ethno Nationalist perps as with "muslim" extremists. The factors are the same...replace "infidels" with "immigrants".

Or conservatives? Who's rhetoric was it that said that Trump is inhuman?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting