Mass Shooting

[shep854]

The number of times firearms are actually fired in self-defense (let alone killing an aggressor) is actually very small compared to the times the simple presentation of a gun actually deterred crime. The numbers of 'Defensive Gun Uses' (DGU) in the US ranges from a low of ~300,000 by the anti-gun Brady Center (!) to the millions by pro-gun researcher John Lott. Even at the lower end, the number is significant.

[Ivanhoe]

 

https://www.9news.com.au/world/news-usa-how-off-duty-fireman-stopped-armed-man-in-missouri-walmart-after-el-paso-shooting/7b34cfa0-af62-4bad-8ead-5d985b3c2434

 

Hey, this guy was walking around with a rifle and in body armour, but did not fire a shot or seem to threaten anybody. The off-duty fire fighter was also carrying and appears, on the face of it, to have threatened the guy with the rifle.

 

In the strange world of the USA why isn't the firefighter facing charges and not the other guy who appeared to overtly threaten no one? The guy with his rifle appears to have been exercising his constitutional right to bear arms.

 

Or am I missing something here>?

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of common law, as practiced in the US.

 

When you take self-defense training from some trainers here, one of the topics covered is how to ensure that the responding LEOs record you as victim rather than assailant.

 

One thing to note in the media coverage; the responder who detained the guy with the rifle is always referred to as "firefighter" as if that has some legal bearing on the situation.

[Panzermann]

One thing to note in the media coverage; the responder who detained the guy with the rifle is always referred to as "firefighter" as if that has some legal bearing on the situation.

​

 

a fire fighter is neither police nor common citizen. and everybody likes firefighters. (well maybe he actually is one)

[shep854]

They didnt want to say private citizen...

[Burncycle360]

They didnt want to say private citizen...

Exactly this. A lot of people's mentality is that the average person is not qualified to protect their existence in this world and is more a danger to others if they tried. As the left would say to make the other side appear heartless, this disproportionately affects the poor -- and those surrounded by bodyguards don't understand the problem. Let them eat cake.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Burncycle360

[Murph]

Antifa will have to do another RSN to distract from Epstein.

[rmgill]

The problem with the "we need guns to shoot ourselves out of tyranny" argument is it has very few historical precedents in the last hundred years or so (I cant actually think of any) whilst there are many countries which have shrugged off tyranny with little or no bloodshed. Allowing the general population to arm can actually facilitate militant, antidemocratic groups whose activities can lead directly or indirectly to tyranny.

What qualifies? Does the republic of Ireland count? What about the Battle of Athens, TN? Do we need to make a list? Finland?

 

Allowing the general population to arm can actually facilitate militant, antidemocratic groups whose activities can lead directly or indirectly to tyranny.

Seems that those with the will to murder in undemocratic ways find a way since they lack scruples.

[rmgill]

Welcome to the wonderful world of common law, as practiced in the US.

 

When you take self-defense training from some trainers here, one of the topics covered is how to ensure that the responding LEOs record you as victim rather than assailant.

 

One thing to note in the media coverage; the responder who detained the guy with the rifle is always referred to as "firefighter" as if that has some legal bearing on the situation.

Yep.

 

There are contexts to where open carry with a rifle is reasonable and perhaps even necessary to push the envelope a little bit. But the yahoo in this case was foolish. There may be a law that covers going in terror of the public or some such that might apply. I suspect the court case will be a bit of a mess but I won't be surprised if in the end there's not much but a disturbing the peace result with the charges that can stick.

 

As to the firefighter, he reasonably believed based on recent events that someone's lives were in danger, his threat of use of deadly force was arguably reasonable under the general standards. I'm not sure if the specifics of that state's laws will bear that out. The great hazard with stepping in as a non cop is not the lack of legal authority to stop a major crime like he thought he was, but the lack of qualified immunity that police have and which regular people do not have. I think in the end the open carry rifle dude should have a stern talking to and a small fine for disturbing the peace, he goes his way and the firefighter goes his way without the shit getting sued out of him.

[NickM]

Antifa will have to do another RSN to distract from Epstein.

 

The very thought occurred to me: Either another mass shooting or a 'bad police shooting' or a 'racist hate crime' will be coming down the pipeline soon.

[rmgill]

Thats very interesting, but what I guess im asking for is the raw data. How many have been shot by how many armed citizens over a given period. Im not saying im right, but Im just pointing out if the armed citizen concept really works, it really needs data to validate it.

Why do you have police at all? Do you have data to show that police actually bring a benefit? /sarcasm.

 

What you have there are examples, and that's great, what it needs is a study that compares how often it happens to how often it doesnt happen. Something of the kind RAND does for operational analysis. Ive yet to see anything like a thoughtful study of it at this point.

We've cited this repeatedly.

 

https://guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

 

There's also the NRA's armed citizen encounters when aggregated make for an interesting set of incidents.

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/analysis-of-five-years-of-armed-encounters-with-data-tables/

 

I do think if people ARE going to lean on this concept, they need training schemes for people that are going to concealed carry. Perhaps derelict shopping malls, nightclubs.

Funny thing about this. When we go actually get training and the media finds out about places like where some of us went a few years ago, they run stories about how citizens are being taught how to be evil nasty militia folks.

 

When they implement laws that are structured around training requirements, you know what the objective of the training is? It's to limit who can get the licenses by way of the expense. Don't believe me? Look at the legal case surrounding Ezell v Chicago.

 

http://www.chicagogunsmatter.org/history/33-ezell-v-chicago

 

In Georgia where we were discussing training when in tandem with the carry license and if that would allay their concerns about where some of us could carry, they objected up and down that even with such training they wanted to keep the Jim Crow era location based restrictions.

 

Set them in a situation where they have lots of dummies, and an armed shooter, and train them how to get a good angle and shoot accurately. Maybe even paintballing. Because until you start introducing training to inoculate people to the surprise of finding themselves in that situation and to revert to training, I dont, personally, think its going to work often enough to make a difference.

The number of defensive gun uses annually in the US say otherwise.

[DB]

America, where you can be charged for looking at someone in a funny way?

 

"Hey honey, I'm going to Walmart"

"People got shot at one of those last week, be prepared"

"Ok..."

[rmgill]

At this point folks in the UK need to not cast aspersions what with the Nazi Pug and Gollywog threat...

[DB]

Doesn't stop you lot from sticking your oar in when it's the other way round.

 

Stop stifling a bit of light-hearted poking at the other people with their huge glass houses.

 

At least I can can collect as much water that's run off my roof as I want, without getting a water board SWAT team shooting me full of holes.

[Murph]

America, where you can be charged for looking at someone in a funny way?

 

"Hey honey, I'm going to Walmart"

"People got shot at one of those last week, be prepared"

"Ok..."

Sadly, I now carry everywhere I go, just in case.

[shep854]

Only Democrats are compassionate enough to comment on tragedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jLpJg5eTSc&t=626s

[rmgill]

 

At least I can can collect as much water that's run off my roof as I want, without getting a water board SWAT team shooting me full of holes.

Do long as Brussels allows it eh.

[NickM]

America, where you can be charged for looking at someone in a funny way?

 

"Hey honey, I'm going to Walmart"

"People got shot at one of those last week, be prepared"

"Ok..."

And why the hell do the pressies across the board make such a stink out of these cases, rather than laugh at the faux outrage?

[Panzermann]

 

America, where you can be charged for looking at someone in a funny way?

 

"Hey honey, I'm going to Walmart"

"People got shot at one of those last week, be prepared"

"Ok..."

And why the hell do the pressies across the board make such a stink out of these cases, rather than laugh at the faux outrage?

 

 

Any story that makes a good headline that then sells newspapers or makes people click the article is a source of income for the media. Any outrage is good for them selling papers and creating traffic on their websites, which then is paid for by the advertisers. It does not matter what is written, as long as it generates clicks.

[Chris Werb]

 

The problem with the "we need guns to shoot ourselves out of tyranny" argument is it has very few historical precedents in the last hundred years or so (I cant actually think of any) whilst there are many countries which have shrugged off tyranny with little or no bloodshed. Allowing the general population to arm can actually facilitate militant, antidemocratic groups whose activities can lead directly or indirectly to tyranny.

What qualifies? Does the republic of Ireland count? What about the Battle of Athens, TN? Do we need to make a list? Finland?

 

 

 

1. What counts is a country successfully shrugging off tyranny by a general uprising of its generally armed populace.

 

2. Ireland did not have a generally armed populace and there was not a general uprising there. If you are talking about the 1916 Easter rising, it failed.

 

3. Battle of Athens - interesting, but Athens TN is not a country and they were hardly trying to overthrow central government.

 

4. Yes, please write a list. I suspect it will be a very short one

 

5. Finland. I'm happy to be educated on that, but I don't recall reading about an uprising against central tyranny by a generally armed populace there.

[Stargrunt6]

Blair Mountain, Deacons for Self Defense, the Civil War, LA riots...

[Colin]

The purpose nowadays for an armed populace is not so much that armed resistance may succeed, but that the cost of using force to achieve your will will come at a very high price. It also puts into question how much is the will of the Armed Forces to kill their own people in large numbers? The US has not had a civil war or a dictatorship since the end of the American Civil war, so that is your success. The armed population is the last line of defense, the Constitution i the first line with the Courts behind it.

[sunday]

Spain's Independence War, as it is know here, from 1808 to 1814. There were firearms comparable to army muskets in every Spanish home.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Report on CNN that release of the movie 'The Hunt' has been put back due to the recent shootings. Hollywood displaying a conscience, im pretty gobsmacked here.

[Murph]

14 year old scares off two adult male attackers with a gun: https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2019/08/10/14-year-old-uses-handgun-defend-sisters-intruders/ It would have only been better if she had hit them a couple of times so they could have been arrested at the hospital.

[Rick]

14 year old scares off two adult male attackers with a gun: https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2019/08/10/14-year-old-uses-handgun-defend-sisters-intruders/ It would have only been better if she had hit them a couple of times so they could have been arrested at the hospital.

Sordid media never mentions when this occurs.