Mass Shooting

[MiloMorai]

12 hours ago, rmgill said:

For the left the violence switch is a rheostat. They turn it up and down. They have been fiddling with that for years. 
 

For the right it's a switch. It was flipped on for a moment on Jan 6 and you have been losing your effing mind since. But you cared not a whiff about two years of left leaning political violence. You are hardly one to talk or complain or even observe. 
 

Also, violence is in Human DNA. Don't be so utterly myopic you think you have out grown it. 

In 2022 so far, mass shootings have resulted in 1,357 people shot, resulting in 278 deaths.

Through the same period in 2021, there were 1,293 people shot, resulting in 280 deaths,

while in 2020 the numbers show 802 people shot with 152 deaths.

Jan 6 was a coup attempt while the leftist stuff was social change, apples and oranges.

What other 1st World country has the violence that the USofA has?

 

[rmgill]

54 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

In 2022 so far, mass shootings have resulted in 1,357 people shot, resulting in 278 deaths.

Through the same period in 2021, there were 1,293 people shot, resulting in 280 deaths,

278 and 280 with a difference of 2 deaths is statistically significant to you when the total homides across the country are in the 22,000 range? 

54 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

while in 2020 the numbers show 802 people shot with 152 deaths.
 

Is 280 vs 152 statistically significant to you here as well? 

Perhaps we need to restrict reporting on mass shooting perpetrators? Stop putting it into fanfare?

Here's a thing for you to look at. How many mass shootings were there in the 1950s at schools? 
Students could buy firearms from stores and bring them to schools. There were hardly any gun laws as compared to now. 

What changed? It wasn't guns. 

54 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Jan 6 was a coup attempt while the leftist stuff was social change, apples and oranges.

Social change. How mealy mouthed of you. A coup is just social change too. It changes the social interactions and dynamics after all. 

I don't think it was a coup, any more than the BLM riots were.

54 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

What other 1st World country has the violence that the USofA has?

Parts of the US are not 1st world. Those that have the steep crime certainly aren't. 

You're mixing three different things here and 

Edited June 13, 2022 by rmgill

[Rick]

On 6/12/2022 at 6:19 PM, Skywalkre said:

I'm not following your criticism at all, Rick.

Let's go in reverse.

- The other link I provided highlighted how some districts already have in place what the authors in the article you're quoting are advocating for and said districts have seen positive results.  In fact... I don't really see anything to argue against such measures working.  The only question seems to be are people willing to spend the money to do it?

Your solution is more "people experts'" and tax-payer money to solve what is a moral problem. It has not, does not, and will not work. These two "people experts" began their study from 1966 onward. Why? Guns were more prevalent and gun laws less so before this time, yet where are the mass shootings?  

- I'm in full agreement the best thing for a child is to grow up in a loving household with both parents (I've linked to secular research years ago highlighting how such an environment leads to a longer life).  So how do you propose getting to that point and what do you do with the kids who don't have this luxury?  (Ugh... sad to make that statement but it probably is a luxury in this day and age.). 

Simple really, allow Jesus Christ in to lives, homes, and schools. Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace.

Kids don't raise themselves.  As that article points out many of these young mass shooters have trauma in their background.  In those situations you remove the parent responsible... so what then?  Are you arguing parents should be left there even if they're guilty of traumatizing their children?  To me the sad reality of this situation is that it sounds, per that other link I gave, that some of these young kids could recover if they got professional help early enough.  Why would we not want to help them do that?

These same type of parents, children, and unfortunate home circumstances were there before mass shootings. Long before. What in the culture changed? 

- The statement about going into a rural home full of guns was in regards to enforcing red flag laws.  A quick google search brings up this article which claims not only are mass shootings more common in rural areas but suicides are also twice as likely as in urban settings (and depending on your definition rural American only encompasses ~14% of the population).  One reason why?  Such rural areas have even less access to mental health resources.

And what about guns in urban areas?  Quick questions: where are more kids killed by guns at; urban or rural?  Where are gun laws more strict; urban or rural? Which are the areas more likely to not have a father in the home; urban or rural? Where are you likely to find more kids in a classroom; urban or rural? 

 So correct me if I'm wrong on this... but I'm almost positive you've made comments in the past dismissing psychology, sociology, etc. completely.  Is that accurate?  I get the impression from your post above you seem to be dismissive of therapy as a tool.  Is that accurate? 

Overall, this is one accurate statement you have made. Let me offer one example among many https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/psychology-finally-finds-god

The following occurred in the A.P.A in 1973. 

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Sodomy/homosexuality_and_psychiatry.htm

Depending on the study, 1/2 to 2/3 of psychiatrists/psychologists do not believe in God. An individual, a family, and a nation cannot sustain morality without God. You and I are seeing this occur now.  I have not seen a "study" on this, but how many psychiatrists believe an abortion is wrong? How many believe the death penalty is wrong?

I also ask because that paragraph you quoted at the top of your response... I don't see any issue with it.  How else do we understand an issue and come to a solution outside of collecting data and analyzing it?

People have been immoral and or evil before psychiatry was established in the mid 18th century. There has been no societal improvements this field has made since then. Some individuals and families have been helped, yes. To be fair, psychiatrists and psychologists are limited in their ability to understand that most complex organ of our bodies. And, to be fair, psychiatry--for the most part -- has limited itself to that organ. 

The two authors merely repeat ad infintim ad nauseam, that this lack of morality is a "mental health" issue that can only be solved by "mental health experts" consuming vast amounts of tax payer dollars. They are of course, delusional> 

 

 

[Ivanhoe]

Evil behavior has been baked into the genome for millions of years;

 

[rmgill]

Yep. It's not been that long since we climbed down out of the trees. 

[sunday]

[NickM]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:29 PM, rmgill said:

Yep. It's not been that long since we climbed down out of the trees. 

 

So the Kilrathi Empire (https://wingcommander.fandom.com/wiki/Kilrathi) is right : We are 'Filthy, Disgusting Apes!'

[MiloMorai]

What is your opinion on this video?

 

[rmgill]

I think Peterson is spot on. I'm pretty sure I pointed to something along these lines earlier in the thread. 

We've been pointing to Dr Peterson for years as having put his finger on some key issues.

He's also noted that he's speaking to young men and folks on the left get upset by that. He asks why they seem to feel that young men SHOULD be brutalized by society and that anyone showing concern should be ridiculed. 

 

[Skywalkre]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:57 PM, Rick said:

Your solution is more "people experts'" and tax-payer money to solve what is a moral problem. It has not, does not, and will not work.

That's blatantly not true per the other post I made next to the one you were responding to.  These interventions are out there already in some places and already working.

On 6/13/2022 at 4:57 PM, Rick said:

Simple really, allow Jesus Christ in to lives, homes, and schools. Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace.

A few glaring issues with this retort.  First, Jesus is already allowed in lives and homes in America (and in some places you can use taxpayer money to help send your kid to a private, religious school).  Second, in places like Europe with vastly less reported religious affiliation/practice you simply don't have these school shootings.  If Jesus being in the home was the problem these incidents would be worse over there.  There's clearly some other variables in play that bring them out here in the US.

On 6/13/2022 at 4:57 PM, Rick said:

These same type of parents, children, and unfortunate home circumstances were there before mass shootings. Long before. What in the culture changed? 

First, you didn't answer the question I posed - "To me the sad reality of this situation is that it sounds, per that other link I gave, that some of these young kids could recover if they got professional help early enough.  Why would we not want to help them do that?"

Second, things have changed.  Per census data the number of kids growing up in a household without one of or both parents has been growing for several decades.  I doubt this is the only issue... but I imagine it's one of many.

On 6/13/2022 at 4:57 PM, Rick said:

And what about guns in urban areas?  Quick questions: where are more kids killed by guns at; urban or rural?  Where are gun laws more strict; urban or rural? Which are the areas more likely to not have a father in the home; urban or rural? Where are you likely to find more kids in a classroom; urban or rural? 

Not really sure what your point is.  Your original statement was that there are no mass murders in rural homes during hunting season... except those links I found clearly show these mass shootings are more likely in rural settings.  Clearly this isn't an issue of urban or rural and one being better than the other.

Quote

Overall, this is one accurate statement you have made. Let me offer one example among many https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/psychology-finally-finds-god

The following occurred in the A.P.A in 1973. 

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Sodomy/homosexuality_and_psychiatry.htm

Depending on the study, 1/2 to 2/3 of psychiatrists/psychologists do not believe in God. An individual, a family, and a nation cannot sustain morality without God. You and I are seeing this occur now.  I have not seen a "study" on this, but how many psychiatrists believe an abortion is wrong? How many believe the death penalty is wrong?

Huh?  I stopped at the end of the first paragraph of the first link.  I got a minor in college in Psychology.  I have friends who are therapists or who work closely with them.  I have never seen Psychology described or argued as something that is an alternative to religion.  That's just a bizarre statement to try and understand.

Per your last bit that is certainly your opinion... but it's just that (interestingly enough my own religious upbringing would argue against that statement).  I imagine our European posters would have something to say otherwise, as already mentioned further above, Europe has far lower rates of religious affiliation/practice yet has fewer negative indicators depending on what you're looking at (such as mass shootings... violence across the board if I'm not mistaken).

Quote

People have been immoral and or evil before psychiatry was established in the mid 18th century. There has been no societal improvements this field has made since then. Some individuals and families have been helped, yes. To be fair, psychiatrists and psychologists are limited in their ability to understand that most complex organ of our bodies. And, to be fair, psychiatry--for the most part -- has limited itself to that organ. 

That's quite the bold statement to make that seems to have no merit to it at all (are you applying this to all mental health professions?).  Then again, 'societal improvements' is an undefined term... I imagine upon challenging this you'll water it down til it has no meaning.

[BansheeOne]

On 9/22/2019 at 1:58 PM, BansheeOne said:

Yeah, but there are far less major cities in the US than Europe.

Of course now I have to get to the bottom of this. *cracks knuckels*

Global homicide rates at the sub-national-level for 2012 (shows the fallacity of applying the 1/100,000 scale to sparsely-settled areas like Nunavut, where even a single murder goes a long way):

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/69ami5/world_homicide_rates_at_the_subnational_level/

Absolute homicide numbers by county in the US for 2014:

 

 

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Assuming the top one percent are major urban areas, excluding them removes 19 percent of the population and 37 percent of homicides in a year where the total was 319 million with 14,249 murders, for a national homicide rate of 4.5/100,000. The remaining rate is then 8,977/258 million, or 3.8/100,000.

Expanding to the top two percent with 28 percent of the population and 51 percent of the murders, the remaining rate is 6,982/230 million or 3.0/100,000.

Expanding to the top five percent, the remaining rate is 4,560/169 million or 2.7/100,000. Of course that's taking nearly half the total population off the table. If we purge any counties with more than one murder, erasing 80 percent of the population with 96 percent of the homicides, the rate is 570/64 million or 0.4/100,000.

Now, homicide rates at the sub-national level in Europe for 2005 (for regional variations illustration purposes only; there is newer data, but I've found no newer chart):

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Globa_study_on_homicide_2011_web.pdf(p. 76 ff.)

Taking major cities out of the European equation would take a little more work since there is no continent-wide breakdown to the same level as in the US. However, the EU-28 had an estimated population of 512 million on 1 January 2017, and 5,200 intentional homicides in the preceding year, translating to a rate of 1.0/100,000. That's so far below even the 95th percentile of US counties that it's probably better to take the worst countries out.

There is an obvious error in the line for the Netherlands in the Eurostat data, giving homicide rates in excess of 20/100,000 from 2010 when all other sources have them in the sub-1.0 range. I find that the still rather high rate of 5.62 for Latvia is because they include attempts in their numbers, while everybody else counts only completed homicides. Then again, neighboring Lithuania is not far behind at 4.92.

Anyway, I find that if you remove EU countries down to those with the lowest homicide rates comprising about 20 percent of overall population (Slovenia, Austria, Czechia, Spain, Portugal and Poland), the equivalent US numbers finally drop below the European ones at 0.4 vs. 0.6. Of course again, that means ignoring 80 percent of the respective population.

Reading back through the thread I just came across this post of mine from three years ago and thought I'd look if there's more recent data. For the EU, there were 4,032 homicides in 2020, a slight uptick from the previous year but still down from the 4,234 of 2016. Back then I stated 5,200; of course the UK has since dropped out, but would have only accounted for about 800 additional homicides. Maybe there has been some additional backward correction; I noted some obviously inflated numbers for the Netherlands then.

Anyway, with a population of 447 million on 1 January 2021, this turns out to a 2020 homicide rate of 0.95/100,000, still the same ballpark. Meanwhile the US rate rose much more sharply to an estimated 7.8/100,000 that year. In either case the increase has been attributed at least partially to COVID restrictions.

Unfortunately I find no newer easily accessible data on sub-national distribution, as I suspect that particular driver would further push the divide between urban and rural areas. At any rate though, the overall difference between the US and Europe remains such that you will have to exclude a majority of the population on either side to distill out the remaining areas with comparable homicide numbers.

[EchoFiveMike]

If you break out the homicide rates by race, I think the US white numbers would fall in line with similar European numbers.  The FBI stats are pretty shady, those lying fucks mix and match "Hispanic" with Caucasian white wherever they're trying to massage the data.

For Chicago, if you break out the black and Hispanic numbers, there's basically no violent crime here.  S/F....Ken M

Edited June 20, 2022 by EchoFiveMike

[MiloMorai]

There are no dark skinned people in Europe? There is definitely Hispanic people.

[Wobbly Head]

1 hour ago, EchoFiveMike said:

If you break out the homicide rates by race, I think the US white numbers would fall in line with similar European numbers.  The FBI stats are pretty shady, those lying fucks mix and match "Hispanic" with Caucasian white wherever they're trying to massage the data.

For Chicago, if you break out the black and Hispanic numbers, there's basically no violent crime here.  S/F....Ken M

 It's not the colour of their skin as much as where they live. You live in a s$#thole your going to be stepping in crap. It happens the world over, city slums have higher crime as people are lazy and want the easy way out. This usually involves doing something against the law. 

 Solving this is going to be expensive, hard and will take decades. It's a lot easier to say "(insert minority) man bad" than do the actual work needed to fix the problem.

[MiloMorai]

43 minutes ago, Wobbly Head said:

 It's not the colour of their skin as much as where they live. You live in a s$#thole your going to be stepping in crap. It happens the world over, city slums have higher crime as people are lazy and want the easy way out. This usually involves doing something against the law. 

 Solving this is going to be expensive, hard and will take decades. It's a lot easier to say "(insert minority) man bad" than do the actual work needed to fix the problem.

Crime in s$#tholes has always been there.

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Wobbly Head said:

 It's not the colour of their skin as much as where they live. You live in a s$#thole your going to be stepping in crap. It happens the world over, city slums have higher crime as people are lazy and want the easy way out. This usually involves doing something against the law. 

 Solving this is going to be expensive, hard and will take decades. It's a lot easier to say "(insert minority) man bad" than do the actual work needed to fix the problem.

First, you're right, it isn't the color of skin, it is the color of mindset. 

Second, as many Leftists in this country like to point out, there are more whites living in poverty than blacks.  In raw numbers that is true enough.  So you would think crime rates would be proportionately greater with whites. 

Three, there aren't as many slums in the  USA as people might think, certainly not like it was during the first half of the 20c up through the 1970s. 

Four, there is a fairly positive correlation between the Great Society movement initiated in 1964 to eliminate poverty and racial injustice, and the rise in crime in the black community.

Edited June 20, 2022 by DKTanker

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

There are no dark skinned people in Europe? There is definitely Hispanic people.

The Irish side of me feels distinctly swarthy.

 

[NickM]

10 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

First, you're right, it isn't the color of skin, it is the color of mindset. 

Second, as many Leftists in this country like to point out, there are more whites living in poverty than blacks.  In raw numbers that is true enough.  So you would think crime rates would be proportionately greater with whites. 

Three, there aren't as many slums in the  USA as people might think, certainly not like it was during the first half of the 20c up through the 1970s. 

Four, there is a fairly positive correlation between the Great Society movement initiated in 1964 to eliminate poverty and racial injustice, and the rise in crime in the black community.

Some reporter years ago made a point that there was a  correlation between crime and section 8 housing.

[MiloMorai]

2 minutes ago, NickM said:

Some reporter years ago made a point that there was a  correlation between crime and section 8 housing.

Toronto cops just did another study of crime in the GTA. Like the one 20-30 years ago it got squashed because it was racist, this one also is being called racist.

[NickM]

3 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

If you break out the homicide rates by race, I think the US white numbers would fall in line with similar European numbers.  The FBI stats are pretty shady, those lying fucks mix and match "Hispanic" with Caucasian white wherever they're trying to massage the data.

For Chicago, if you break out the black and Hispanic numbers, there's basically no violent crime here.  S/F....Ken M

Especially when they're trying to push the narrative of white Supremacists terrorizing minorities.  So if a Latin king smokes an ms13 guy it's reported as white on Hispanic violence 

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

First, you're right, it isn't the color of skin, it is the color of mindset. 

Second, as many Leftists in this country like to point out, there are more whites living in poverty than blacks.  In raw numbers that is true enough.  So you would think crime rates would be proportionately greater with whites. 

Three, there aren't as many slums in the  USA as people might think, certainly not like it was during the first half of the 20c up through the 1970s. 

Four, there is a fairly positive correlation between the Great Society movement initiated in 1964 to eliminate poverty and racial injustice, and the rise in crime in the black community.

Thats a hell of a leap you are making there. One could just as easily suggest its connected to the large number of Black Servicemen coming back from Vietnam.

As far as colour of skin though, you are absolutely right. Inner city crime is about culture, not race. And people forget that whites were perfectly up to developin the same kind of insidious criminal culture in the urban areas, as anyone who reads their Dickens can point to.

If people dont feel themselves part of society, they will live outside its rules. Again, this isnt a new observation, you could see it clearly in Victorian Britain.

 

 

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thats a hell of a leap you are making there. One could just as easily suggest its connected to the large number of Black Servicemen coming back from Vietnam.

That was fifty years ago, time didn't stand still at 1972. 
BTW, what exactly are you suggesting?  The number of blacks that served in Vietnam was almost exactly proportional to their demographic set of 11%.  The same held true with Caucasians who represented about 88% of those that served in Vietnam. 
As for leaps, I didn't make any leaps, I merely reported facts.

[BansheeOne]

While putting it down to race is of course another "it's not our problem" approach which I think perpetuates the problem, I always like a statistical challenge. *another knucklecrack*

FBI numbers for 2019 identify 4,728 out of 16,245 homicide offenders as white. They also say 1,531 were of Hispanic ethnicity without cross-referencing whether their race is white, black or other. For the sake of the argument let's say they are all identified as white and thus deduct them from this column to leave 3,197 non-Hispanic whites. As each perpetrator killed 1.02 victims on average for a total of 16,669 (mass shootings notwithstanding), that's 3,261 intentional homicides.

Per 2020 census data, 57.8 percent of 331.45 million Americans were non-Latino white, thus 191.58 million. That's a homicide rate of 1.7/100,000, which is in the range of Finland (1.63), Tajikistan (1.64), Armenia and Belgium (both 1.69), Sierra Leone (1.73) or Canada (1.76). Of course for full comparison, we would have to break down the homicide rates of the latter by race/ethnicity, too.

The US has an "ethnic and cultural diversity level" of 49.01 percent, much more diverse than Armenia at 12.72 and Finland at 13.15, while Tajikistan, Belgium, Canada and Sierra Leone are actually more diverse at 51.07, 55.54, 71.24 and 81.91 respectively. I thus feel confident we could reduce their homicide rates too by focussing on that of the biggest ethnic group only, but data is probably hard to come by.

A quick and dirty way might be comparing to countries with a largely homogenous white non-Hispanic population, notably the Scandinavians: Denmark (diversity 8.19 percent, homicide rate 1.01/100,000), Iceland (7.98 percent, 0.89/100,000), Sweden (6.00 percent, 1.08/100,000) and Norway (5.86 percent, 0.47/100,000). Exact data is also available in English from the UK (12.11 percent, 1.2/100,000), where in 2018 81 percent of all murder suspects were white and 13 percent black, corresponding rather precisely to the makeup of society overall.

We can thus conclude very roughly that the homicide rate among white non-Hispanic Americans is approximately 1.5-3.5 that of white non-Hispanic Europeans; possibly excluding Finns, and probably due to the same combination of gun and mental health issues. 😁

[jmsaari]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

We can thus conclude very roughly that the homicide rate among white non-Hispanic Americans is approximately 1.5-3.5 that of white non-Hispanic Europeans; possibly excluding Finns, and probably due to the same combination of gun and mental health issues. 😁

Well we have a lot of guns by European standards,  but we're actually much more into stabbing, slashing, clubbing and axing each other, than shooting. Firearms make up pretty small fraction of homicide overall. As for the mental health issues, ahem.. well... the weather's been nice recently?  Seriously speaking - here it's mostly alcohol, whether that counts as mental health issue is a matter of taste perhaps, but around 4/5 homicides have either the perp, victim or both drunk at the time. And fun fact - there is also this genetic mutation found pretty much exclusively in Finland, with the effect that those who have it are prone to fits of blind rage under the combination of alcohol & low blood sugar... overall, very different homicide situation than the US and streets are quite safe.

Edited June 20, 2022 by jmsaari

[lucklucky]

I don't think a simple racial comparison is enough. Age is one of the biggest factors in crime. So if the white Americans are much younger on average than European white i also would expect an increase.

Edited June 20, 2022 by lucklucky