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Obscure Saladin Armoured Car Question


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Why didn't Bundesgrenzschutz Saladins have co-axial machine guns fitted?

Perhaps they were seen as provocative, that's the reason we couldn't run border patrols with gun jeeps and had to keep our AFVs outside the 1K zone.

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Well there's the small matter of the 76mm gun that was installed....

For some reason those bigger guns aren't seen as threatening as machine guns, and they really aren't against infantry and opposition border guards. An example, when there was increased terrorist bombing activity in the FRG we would park a tank, without mounted machine guns, at the entrances to the kaserne. When the threat level increased in the days after the US responded to the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, we again parked our tanks at the entrances but this time we mounted our machine guns (though we weren't issued ammo, so it could have gotten interesting).

Edited by DKTanker
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Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue. The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

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Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue. The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

 

Allegedly, yes.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Handwaffen_der_Bundeswehr

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Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue. The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

 

Allegedly, yes.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Handwaffen_der_Bundeswehr

 

 

The service dates may have something to do with it: The Browning was only used apparently from 1955 to 1957, likewise dates for the BAR. But that was also the Heer, not the Bundesgrenzschutz, or Federal Border Guard (someone may correct me here / heer) who used the Saladin rather than the Heer.

Edited by DougRichards
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Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

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Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

 

One of them is still there.

 

3633907426_285a3982c2_b.jpg​

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Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

Perhaps that provides a clue. The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

Allegedly, yes.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Handwaffen_der_Bundeswehr

 

Yes, they were part of the first equipment from US donations. togehter with all the other US Army surplus. (and also British surplus) One thing that has stuck in Landser memory is the idiotic "three clicks back" rule of thumb for setting headspace on an M1919. Which makers no sense on an MG3 muzzel device. But try explaining that to a StUffz. :(

Edited by Panzermann
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Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.%5B4%5D The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.%5B5%5D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

You can shoot smoke and tear gas and such from the three inch gun. But to remove the coax I have no idea what the thinking behind that was.

 

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

 

Really, in concept the old half tracks from WW2 were ahead in concept with a rear door for dismounting and the kangaroos were just a wartime improvisation. I have no idea how they got it into their heads that the HS-30 may have ever been a gopod idea. Well it had many other mechanical faults.

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Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.

 

 

Uhm no. The Leopard 1 engine is multifuel and runs fine. Which is the one example that imediately come to my mind. For lower costs and more power it has shifted towards pure Diesel fuel engines today. Which brings its own problems when the Diesel fuel optimized COTS engines choke on JP4 kerosene supplied by US forces.

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Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.

 

 

Uhm no. The Leopard 1 engine is multifuel and runs fine. Which is the one example that imediately come to my mind. For lower costs and more power it has shifted towards pure Diesel fuel engines today. Which brings its own problems when the Diesel fuel optimized COTS engines choke on JP4 kerosene supplied by US forces.

 

 

 

I thought they had converted that to be a pure diesel at an early stage?

 

They can run Challenger 2 on JP4, and did in 2003 from what they siphoned off from a USMC pipeline. Had lowered power output though.

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I have no idea how they got it into their heads that the HS-30 may have ever been a gopod idea. Well it had many other mechanical faults.

 

 

Not surprising as it was built in the UK (shudder!)

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My M813a1 was set up for JP8 and ran fine (save for the plastic garbage I found in the tank).

 

Whats the heating value diff between kerosene and diesel, shouldn't be much at all. You dont really need a multi-fuel for that switch. Its MoGas thats the hard part. Thats what needs the MAN hypercycle combustion stuff.

 

Adding, looking at some charts, Jp8 and no1 diesel come from the same distillate fractions from raw feed stock. No 2 diesel is a thicker fraction, lower down the distillation column. Gasoline is a higher, more aromatic fraction, next bracket up from kerosene and no1 diesel.

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a554221.pdf

Edited by rmgill
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Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

Canister shot using rubber balls and reduced charge might have been interesting :)

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Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.

 

Uhm no. The Leopard 1 engine is multifuel and runs fine. Which is the one example that imediately come to my mind. For lower costs and more power it has shifted towards pure Diesel fuel engines today. Which brings its own problems when the Diesel fuel optimized COTS engines choke on JP4 kerosene supplied by US forces.

 

 

I thought they had converted that to be a pure diesel at an early stage?

 

They can run Challenger 2 on JP4, and did in 2003 from what they siphoned off from a USMC pipeline. Had lowered power output though.

 

 

Right the Perkins V12 is also multifuel. When burning kerosene you have lower energy density in the fuel and thus less power output in the end.

 

 

 

My M813a1 was set up for JP8 and ran fine (save for the plastic garbage I found in the tank).

 

Whats the heating value diff between kerosene and diesel, shouldn't be much at all. You dont really need a multi-fuel for that switch. Its MoGas thats the hard part. Thats what needs the MAN hypercycle combustion stuff.

 

Yes, the diesel engine will combust Kerosene (or olive oil or old frying oil or...) What kills many modern engines are the fuel injection pumps, that are built with the expectation of the lubricity of diesel fuel and they break when other fuels run through them. also modern turbo engiens are highly optimised in how the injection is controlled etc. whcih is all FUBAR, when not using the proper fuel. The margins have been made much narrower in search for more power.

Adding, looking at some charts, Jp8 and no1 diesel come from the same distillate fractions from raw feed stock. No 2 diesel is a thicker fraction, lower down the distillation column. Gasoline is a higher, more aromatic fraction, next bracket up from kerosene and no1 diesel.

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a554221.pdf

 

Because diesel fuel has the highest density of the three, you of course have more mass to burn. Which means higher energy density. IIIRC the Abrams manual states a number on the power loss with various fuels.

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Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

Canister shot using rubber balls and reduced charge might have been interesting :)

 

 

 

The Saladins were used by the BGS in its role as additional military force and to patrol the border against commie invasion. The border guard was used as actual border guards back then before moving more and more to being a federal police force. Even having been renamed in 2005 as Bundespolizei (BPOL; Federal Police). Guarding borders is only ony one of many duties, like guarding railways (because the railway police had been disbanded in the privatization), airports and supply bodies for big demos and football games.

 

So not really needed against protestors. though the BGS would have been sent against insurrections of course.

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Yes, the diesel engine will combust Kerosene (or olive oil or old frying oil or...) What kills many modern engines are the fuel injection pumps, that are built with the expectation of the lubricity of diesel fuel and they break when other fuels run through them. also modern turbo engiens are highly optimised in how the injection is controlled etc. whcih is all FUBAR, when not using the proper fuel. The margins have been made much narrower in search for more power.

Adding, looking at some charts, Jp8 and no1 diesel come from the same distillate fractions from raw feed stock. No 2 diesel is a thicker fraction, lower down the distillation column. Gasoline is a higher, more aromatic fraction, next bracket up from kerosene and no1 diesel.

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a554221.pdf

 

Because diesel fuel has the highest density of the three, you of course have more mass to burn. Which means higher energy density. IIIRC the Abrams manual states a number on the power loss with various fuels.

 

The trick is however that I suspect that the heating value difference between No1, No2 and Arctic Diesel will be a larger range than the difference between No 1 and Kerosene/JP8. Just looking at the density which is proportional to the heating value.

 

Also lubricity of diesels has gone down with the Ultra Low Sulfur grades. Such can be resolved by adding oil to the diesel if one needs it.

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