Tanker War Redux

[Stuart Galbraith]

Why escort tankers at all? Why not give them a 80km by 80km box to patrol, and let the tankers pass through?

 

I guess that is an expensive way to do it, but if you just patrol the straits, there is more room in the gulf to use a more southerly route where you can use aircraft to guard them.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[Mighty_Zuk]

Yep. Either way, USVs are a relatively very cheap, risk-free way of providing effective protection to commercial vessels.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, that would be a good option. The RN in particular has been spending a lot of time looking at them. The Israeli Navy actually has some impressive looking examples already in service.

 

But would they deter as well as well as a manned surface ship? I dont know, its never really been done before.

[Nobu]

Tehran's offer of a tanker exchange appears to be a realization that without a diplomatic solution, an escalation of events beyond its control is likely.

 

There is room for an agreement, as the same may also be said of London in various ways.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Id say its got more to do with the change of leadership in London. They think Bojo will go for a straight swap. Personally, If they want a swap, they would probably have been better off offering up.Nazanin Zaghari Radcliffe, a stain on Johnson's career as Foreign Secretary. But clearly they arent smart enough to think of that one.

 

Personally Id tell them to piss up a rope as far as a tanker swap. One was taken for violating sanctions and when passing through British territorial waters, the other was straight piracy from Omani waters by a hostile power. They should get nothing in exchange for it, or once again when they want a swap for something else, they will just snap up a tanker or two.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[Nobu]

I don't think Tehran would include a release of Radcliffe openly, but I agree that if Iran is smart, it would be on the table as a concession to be delayed for face-saving reasons.

 

One of the reasons for the strength of ties between Iran and Japan is a shared understanding of the importance of such reasoning in both culture and politics.

[Anixtu]

Why escort tankers at all? Why not give them a 80km by 80km box to patrol, and let the tankers pass through?

 

I guess that is an expensive way to do it, but if you just patrol the straits, there is more room in the gulf to use a more southerly route where you can use aircraft to guard them.

Guaranteed the opposition won't approach a target until your patrols are at maximum distance from it, and will have taken control before your patrols can intervene. A bit like what actually happened with Stena Impero.

 

Aerial escorts? Manned helos or UAVs? The latter have no less than lethal options. The former would struggle with less than lethal and have range and endurance issues. An escort ship has a lot of options and capabilities.

[Chris Werb]

I thought the patrol vs escort argument had been pretty much put to bed twice in the 20th century in the latter's favour.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It probably is, when you have enough escorts. And the type 23s do have armed helicopters, something we didn't have in both world wars.

[Josh]

I wonder if UAV escort would be practical. Blimps did that work in WWII with great success.

Alternatively, just punish the boats where they live. Its not like no one knows where the IRGC hangs out. Or just take it out on the regular navy if the boghammers are hard to find. Saviz probably deserves some strafing at the least.

[Burncycle360]

Flyvefisken class with a couple of RHIBs and a light helicopter superstructure aft would do about 90% of what the major surface combatants are doing at a fraction of the cost.

 

Like using an F-35 to blow up goats...

[Jeff]

You can have a naval vessel a half mile off the tanker's beam and the Iranians can send another helo to fast rope a team onto the tanker's deck before you can get the first warning out by radio. What do you do then? As soon as their feet touch the deck, the ship is lost. You either have to shoot the helo down before it gets to the tanker and then have the Iranians claim you shot it down with no cause or shoot it down once it hovers over the tanker and the first boarding party member starts down the rope. This is pretty quick timing and the helo is likely to crash onto the tanker anyway. They will place you in a no win situation and force you to shoot first or lose the ship.

[Burncycle360]

Only have to shoot one down, theyve already set precident. Just make sure youre not in their waters.

[DKTanker]

Only have to shoot one down, theyve already set precident. Just make sure youre not in their waters.

Yes, I should think so. Have to have courage of your convictions and ignore the inevitable caterwauling from those that always whine and cry, but you'll likely only have to do it once, maybe twice.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1-2 large vessels in the strait for air defense, the rest are enough manned RHIBs to provide escorts, plus a larger number of unmanned ones to provide extra firepower and deterrence.

Alternatively, 1 QE to provide escort via helicopters.

[Jeff]

How about Apaches? The latest version is supposed to have marine protection. Start popping some Iranian fast boats with Hellfires. Don't the Hydra rockets have guidance now as well?

[Colin]

Q ship mimicking a british flagged ship, AIS and everything and then sink a couple of the fast movers, shoot down the helicopter, turn off AIS head back out to sea, add false panels paint, new ID and away you go again.

[Stuart Galbraith]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/27/iran-tanker-standoff-tehran-releases-nine-crew-of-mt-riah-vessel

Iran has freed nine of 12 Indian crew members of MT Riah, a Panama-flagged tanker it seized this month as part of a growing diplomatic crisis in the Middle East, the Indian foreign ministry said on Saturday.

The MT Riah was detained by the Iranian coastguard on 13 July, with 12 Indian crew members on board, the Indian foreign ministry said, and appealed for the release of the remaining crew. No reason has been provided as to why the three are being held.

“Nine crew members have been released and they will be on their way to India soon,” foreign ministry spokesman Raveesh Kumar said. “Our mission in Iran has requested the release of remaining crew members from the Iranian authorities concerned.”

Dozens of Indian sailors on ships in the Gulf have been caught up in rising tensions between Iran and the west.

Iranian state TV aired footage of the vessel a few days after it was seized, saying it had been detained by Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards for smuggling fuel.

Indian and Iranian authorities said this week Iran had granted India consular access to 18 Indian crew seized on another ship, the British-flagged Stena Impero, that Iran seized in the Strait of Hormuz on 19 July.

The seizure of the British tanker in the world’s most important waterway for the oil trade has deepened a crisis between Iran and the west that was triggered in May when the US tightened sanctions, in effect barring all countries from buying Iranian oil.

Iran said it had seized the Stena Impero because it had collided with a fishing boat.

India’s junior foreign minister, V Muraleedharan, said India was pushing for the release of the Indian crew on the British vessel.

India has had longstanding political and energy ties with Iran, but it has cut all its oil supplies because of US sanctions.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[Chris Werb]

1-2 large vessels in the strait for air defense, the rest are enough manned RHIBs to provide escorts, plus a larger number of unmanned ones to provide extra firepower and deterrence.

Alternatively, 1 QE to provide escort via helicopters.

 

I think this is headed in the right direction, but our large AD vessels are few in number, electrically challenged and lack ASW kit, so would themselves need escorting vs Kilos if the Iranians decided to deploy them. I am not sure a RHIB would be up to it in some of the sea states they must get out there. I was thinking something more like a pilot boat fitted with automatic weapons up to 30mm calibre (including at least one stabilised weapon station) and perhaps some stingers (you're not going to hit anything with laser beam riding Starstreak from a boat that's pitching rolling and yawing in a sea - it would be better to put them on the tankers themselves). The other absolute essential is an armed detachment on the ship. You are not going to rappel onto a ship or board it with RM Commandos pouring small arms fire and the odd AT-4 and N-LAW into your Huey.

[Chris Werb]

By the way, something for Stuart. The latest Home Office guidance for police contains a whole chapter on Section 5 weapons for armed security details on ships. (Chapter 30)

[Anixtu]

The other absolute essential is an armed detachment on the ship. You are not going to rappel onto a ship or board it with RM Commandos pouring small arms fire and the odd AT-4 and N-LAW into your Huey.

If you have competent armed guards onboard that is enough to prevent an IRGCN boarding, you don't need an escort.

[Chris Werb]

 

The other absolute essential is an armed detachment on the ship. You are not going to rappel onto a ship or board it with RM Commandos pouring small arms fire and the odd AT-4 and N-LAW into your Huey.

If you have competent armed guards onboard that is enough to prevent an IRGCN boarding, you don't need an escort.

 

 

In which case, why not have a couple of floating barrack ships out in the Indian Ocean with small craft and/or helicopters on board to transfer the detachments and weapons onto the inbound ships and take them off the outbound vessels?. The producer nations could provide hotel accommodation at the Persian Gulf end of the journeys. This would be a great gig for a lot of retired servicemen/women who could be signed up as sponsored reservists or similar.

[Anixtu]

There is no enduring threat of state sponsored piracy in the SoH. When the current crisis is over, in weeks or months, business as usual will return, and the escorts will go back to their usual duties of preparing for the next crisis.

[Stuart Galbraith]

By the way, something for Stuart. The latest Home Office guidance for police contains a whole chapter on Section 5 weapons for armed security details on ships. (Chapter 30)

Does it reference what happened in India?

[Chris Werb]

 

By the way, something for Stuart. The latest Home Office guidance for police contains a whole chapter on Section 5 weapons for armed security details on ships. (Chapter 30)

Does it reference what happened in India?

 

 

Give it a read. It's quite interesting