Protests In Hong Kong

[Stuart Galbraith]

I know, but what alternative was there? I dont think we wanted to let it go either.

 

One of my family was predicting there is going to be a LOT of Chinese wanting to come to the UK in the aftermath of this. Personally, Id welcome them. They are owed as far as im concerned.

[sunday]

The alternative? Return to China the territories whose lease was expiring, and keep the territories which were leased in perpetuity. But that would have been too expensive for HM Treasury, so the then Government decided to give HK in whole to the PRC, AFAIR.

 

HK residents are perhaps more owed that most of the new "Asian" residents in UK.

[Stuart Galbraith]

And once again we come down to Britain with its (at the time) 100 thousand man army backed by President Bill Clinton, standing up to China's 2 million man Army. Even if it worked at the time, which I doubt, it wouldn't work against the increasingly authoritarian state China now is.

 

These are all just pipe dreams and you know it. We find it hard enough to stand up to Spain stamping its foot to get Gibraltar back.

[sunday]

Then, what do you want nukes for?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well we could get into a long debate about nuclear deterrence, but personally I dont think our 216 nuclear warheads would make much of an impact on China's burgeoning population, do you?

 

The idea we can somehow leverage atomic weapons to hold onto British territories was rather disproved by our having the atomic bomb in 1952, and no Empire left in 1956. Nothing has changed since then. Nuclear weapons are for show and not for go, and although there are still some on this grate site that suggest otherwise, they are not to be taken seriously.

 

Should we threaten Spain with Atomic Weapons? Would you take it seriously? Probably not.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[sunday]

Well, that opens the discussion about the practicality of nuclear weapons in today's world, mad dictators excluded.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Maybe when we get Boris Johnson as PM then.

[DKTanker]

And once again we come down to Britain with its (at the time) 100 thousand man army backed by President Bill Clinton, standing up to China's 2 million man Army. Even if it worked at the time, which I doubt, it wouldn't work against the increasingly authoritarian state China now is.

 

These are all just pipe dreams and you know it. We find it hard enough to stand up to Spain stamping its foot to get Gibraltar back.

Two points. 1.) China was not threatening war if Britain didn't give up HK, much less the territories for which it had no claim. 2.) Britain's Mine Sweeping fleet by itself would have been all the deterrent Britain needed.

 

Let's be real, shall we? Britain ceding HK to PRC was all about ingratiating itself with PRC and opening new markets. If Britain could have increased trade with a few billion communist Chinese and all they had to do was sacrifice a few million free Chinese for the cause, the math certainly argues that sacrificing the few makes sense.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 If we threatened NOT to give up HK, how do you know that they would not? They have after all a considerable advantage over Taiwan, in that they are physically connected to it. What would we do, bitterly complain to the UN about it? We had no legal right to the new territories, and that by all accounts amount to half the population of Hong Kong and 86 percent of the territory, including all the reservoirs. The last time anyone tried to split a city, the results were none too successful as I recall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Territories

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48835278

China has accused protesters who vandalised Hong Kong's parliament on Monday of "serious illegal actions" that "trample on the rule of law".

A group of activists occupied the Legislative Council (LegCo) building for several hours after breaking away from a peaceful protest.

Hundreds of police used tear gas to disperse demonstrators.

The Chinese government urged the city to investigate the "criminal responsibility of violent offenders".

Hong Kong, a former British colony, is part of China but run under a "one country, two systems" arrangement that guarantees it a level of autonomy. Its citizens enjoy rights not seen on the mainland.

Monday's disorder followed weeks of mass protests over a controversial extradition bill, which critics have said could be used to send political dissidents from Hong Kong to the mainland.

 

The Chinese government said the ransacking of parliament was a blatant challenge to the "one country, two systems" formula.

So far, Beijing has reacted to the protests from a distance, but Monday's violence could be a catalyst for Beijing to push for tighter control over Hong Kong, says BBC World Service Asia-Pacific editor Celia Hatton.

Hong Kong's leader Carrie Lam earlier made similar remarks, condemning the "extreme use of violence" by the protesters who had broken into LegCo.

"Nothing is more important than the rule of law in Hong Kong," she told a pre-dawn press conference on Tuesday, flanked by Police Commissioner Lo Wai-chung.

The government suspended the extradition bill last month and it is now unlikely to pass, but the protesters want it scrapped completely and are calling on Ms Lam to stand down.

 

Hypocrites.

[Panzermann]

ransacking? It does not look like anything has been taken from the HK parlaiment to me.

[Nobu]

The function of the Hongkongese resistance movment is to provoke a response. What is concerning in various ways is that this Carrie Lam appears to be cognizant of this.

[rmgill]

 

 

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.

The LCS is a mistake among a lot of other more capable warships. Its not like we fielded JUST the LCS fitted for but not with weapons.

 

Seriously, stop pushing this line Stuart. When the UK stops being a 2nd tier player then you can talk smack about who's navy is less stupid.

Edited July 2, 2019 by rmgill

[Stuart Galbraith]

There is some speculation that the PRC put in 'Agitators' among the protestors, so they can make the protestors look bad enough that they can go in heavy handed. I wouldnt rule that out, but if they had, I would have thought that if they had, they would already have sent the tanks in by now.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

 

2 This coming from the nation that gave us the LCS. At least we dont have to run perfectly serviceable warships over mines to find them.

The LCS is a mistake among a lot of other more capable warships. Its not like we fielded JUST the LCS fitted for but not with weapons.

 

Seriously, stop pushing this line Stuart. When the UK stops being a 2nd tier player then you can talk smack about who's navy is less stupid.

 

 

Im not pushing any line. Mr Sarc there wanted to sneer at the Royal Navy's invaluable assistance when his navy fucked up, so he got it back down the bearing. And to be honest Ryan, I hardly think he needs YOU to bodyguard for him.

[Ssnake]

There is some speculation that the PRC put in 'Agitators' among the protestors, so they can make the protestors look bad enough that they can go in heavy handed. I wouldnt rule that out, but if they had, I would have thought that if they had, they would already have sent the tanks in by now.

That's quite the point. The PRC has the power to destroy Hong Kong - but if they want to keep it as a money-making machine, they can't.

[Stuart Galbraith]

This is the problem the PRC has. They want Hong Kong to be like the PRC. What they havent figured out is, if they make Hong Kong just like the PRC, they will kill it. Its that innovation and independence, wholly different from the rest of China, that makes it what it is. They would do well to leave it the hell alone and treat it as a colonial asset at arms length, and let it keep laying the golden egg.

 

Im reminded of what Lech Walesa once said. 'Sure, the Soviets can take Poland over. But they will never get it working again'.

[sunday]

Looks like Stuart is well again, and I hope he continues in that shape.

Now, let's contrast the abandonment of the parts of Hong Kong leased to perpetuity to a totalitarian regime, with this 2008 statement:

Q257 Mr. Hamilton: Clearly, following the election of Zapatero's Government, and their subsequent re-election, there was a sea change in relations between Spain, Gibraltar and the United Kingdom. Of course, before that, there were constant discussions about Gibraltar's sovereignty and whether it had a right to continue as it was. Are sovereignty discussions between Spain and Gibraltar now permanently off the agenda, or is the sovereignty issue still in the background as far as Britain's relations with Spain and Gibraltar are concerned?

Jim Murphy: I share your assessment about the very mature and principled position of the Spanish Government. We have seen a real willingness to engage on the principle and the detail. Without infringing on Spanish politics, I should say that we now have a very healthy dynamic. Of course, on occasions, we disagree. Is sovereignty off the agenda for ever? Such conversations cannot stop people raising matters, but we have made it very clear—I think, Mr. Hamilton, that you were at the Gibraltar day celebrations at the Guildhall when I made this speech—that the UK Government will never—"never" is a seldom-used word in politics—enter into an agreement on sovereignty without the agreement of the Government of Gibraltar and their people. In fact, we will never even enter into a process without that agreement. The word "never" sends a substantial and clear commitment and has been used for a purpose. We have delivered that message with confidence to the peoples and the Governments of Gibraltar and Spain. It is a sign of the maturity of our relationship now that that is accepted as the UK's position.

Q258 Mr. Hamilton: I am sure that the people and Government of Gibraltar will be very grateful, as is the Committee, for that statement and reiteration.

Source

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thank you Sunday. Its been an eventful month to put it mildly.

 

As said before, no parts of Hong Kong were abandoned. It would have been impossible to hold onto half a city when the Communists owned ALL the reservoirs. To keep Hong Kong, we would have had to keep regularly importing icebergs. Besides, splitting cities never works very well. Ask a Berliner.

 

As for Gibraltar, its pretty clear the Blair Government were willing to throw Gibraltar under the bus to get support from Spain on various issues in the EU. That only ended when the leadership of Spain changed. All looks a bit short sighted now, but that was our Tony for you.

[sunday]

Thank you Sunday. Its been an eventful month to put it mildly.

 

As said before, no parts of Hong Kong were abandoned. It would have been impossible to hold onto half a city when the Communists owned ALL the reservoirs. To keep Hong Kong, we would have had to keep regularly importing icebergs. Besides, splitting cities never works very well. Ask a Berliner.

 

As for Gibraltar, its pretty clear the Blair Government were willing to throw Gibraltar under the bus to get support from Spain on various issues in the EU. That only ended when the leadership of Spain changed. All looks a bit short sighted now, but that was our Tony for you.

 

Seems you are stating that yes, that half of a city was abandoned because of lack of infrastructures.

 

You know, there is a thing called Civil Engineering that comprises reservoir building, and there other things called desalination plants, and there was time to prepare a division. HK also, probably earnt HM Government a pretty shilling or two, and not all of them because the export of opium.

 

Probably, the average HKer would have received UK citizenship with more advantage than most UK residents originating from the Indian subcontinent, Mayor of London included.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Thank you Sunday. Its been an eventful month to put it mildly.

 

As said before, no parts of Hong Kong were abandoned. It would have been impossible to hold onto half a city when the Communists owned ALL the reservoirs. To keep Hong Kong, we would have had to keep regularly importing icebergs. Besides, splitting cities never works very well. Ask a Berliner.

 

As for Gibraltar, its pretty clear the Blair Government were willing to throw Gibraltar under the bus to get support from Spain on various issues in the EU. That only ended when the leadership of Spain changed. All looks a bit short sighted now, but that was our Tony for you.

 

Seems you are stating that yes, that half of a city was abandoned because of lack of infrastructures.

 

You know, there is a thing called Civil Engineering that comprises reservoir building, and there other things called desalination plants, and there was time to prepare a division. HK also, probably earnt HM Government a pretty shilling or two, and not all of them because the export of opium.

 

Probably, the average HKer would have received UK citizenship with more advantage than most UK residents originating from the Indian subcontinent, Mayor of London included.

 

 

Where you going to put them? Hong Kong is already built on, and the bits that arent are small mountains. None of these are great options for reservoirs. Also, Britain in 1984 was broke. Where was all this money for investing in a colony going to come from, when we could barely invest in the rest of Britain?

 

You only have to look at the wiki entry to see the reason why.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Territories

As the expiry date of the lease neared in the 1980s, talks between the United Kingdom and the People's Republic of China led to the signing of the Sino-British Joint Declaration (1984), in which the whole of Hong Kong would be returned, instead of only the New Territories. This is because Hong Kong's shipping ports, reservoirs and other vital installations were all in the New Territories. Had only the New Territories been returned to China, it would also have been difficult to accommodate those New Territories residents moving to the Kowloon Peninsula and Hong Kong Island.

 

 

So you end up with a colony without water or ports. It makes the Northern Ireland Brexit problem look straightforward.

[sunday]

Note that the talks did not include directly the people of HK. That is different from Gibraltar. Anyway, seems one part of the Sino-British Joint Declaration considers it is now void:

In July 2017, when British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson urged democratic progress in Hong Kong,[26][27] China's foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang said the legally binding Hong Kong handover treaty with Britain 'as a historical document, no longer has any practical significance,' and that 'It is not at all binding for the central government's management over Hong Kong. The UK has no sovereignty, no power to rule and no power to supervise Hong Kong after the handover.'[28][29][30][31][32] In response the British Foreign office said: "It is a legally binding treaty, registered with the UN and continues to be in force. As a co-signatory, the UK government is committed to monitoring its implementation closely." Johnson restated Britain's commitment to Hong Kong is enshrined in the "treaty" that was "just as strong today" as it was 20 years ago.[29][32]

Also this:

Lu told reporters during a regular briefing on Friday that the document no longer binds China.

“Now Hong Kong has returned to the motherland’s embrace for 20 years, the Sino-British Joint Declaration, as a historical document, no longer has any practical significance, and it is not at all binding for the central government’s management over Hong Kong. The UK has no sovereignty, no power to rule and no power to supervise Hong Kong after the handover,” Lu said.

This looks the kind of bullying we use to see when describing the operations of certain Western powers in the middle of the 19th century...

Perhaps it is time to begin repatriation of HKers...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Id be happy to have them. I like Chinese food.

[BansheeOne]

Hong Kong police launch tear gas in latest mass protest

By ALICE FUNG and YANAN WANG 21 minutes ago

HONG KONG (AP) — Hong Kong police launched tear gas at protesters Sunday after a massive pro-democracy march continued late into the evening. The action was the latest confrontation between police and demonstrators who have taken to the streets for over a month to protest a proposed extradition bill and call for electoral reforms in the Chinese territory.

 

The march reached its police-designated end point in Hong Kong’s Wan Chai district in the late afternoon, but thousands continued onward, at various points occupying key government and business districts. They then headed for the Liaison Office, which represents China’s Communist Party-led central government within the city.

Protesters threw eggs at the building and spray-painted its surrounding surveillance cameras. China’s national emblem, which adorns the front of the Liaison Office, was splattered with black ink.

 

Later, police threw tear gas canisters at protesters to try to disperse them. Protesters scattered, some heading back in the direction of a key business and retail district. Police remained in place, protecting themselves with shields.

 

Organizers said 430,000 people participated in the march, while police said there were 138,000 during the procession’s “peak period.”

 

[...]

 

Walking in sweltering heat, protesters dressed in black kicked off Sunday’s march at a public park, carrying a large banner that read “Independent Inquiry for Rule of Law.”

 

“Free Hong Kong! Democracy now!” the protesters chanted, forming a dense procession through Hong Kong’s Wan Chai district as they were joined by others who had been waiting in side streets.

 

“I think the government has never responded to our demands,” said Karen Yu, a 52-year-old Hong Kong resident who has attended four protests since they started. “No matter how much the government can do, at least it should come out and respond to us directly.”

 

Marchers ignored orders from police to finish off the procession on a road in Wan Chai, according to police and the Civil Human Rights Front, the march’s organizers.

 

Protesters repeated the five points of their “manifesto,” which was first introduced when a small group of them stormed the legislature earlier this month. Their main demands include universal suffrage — direct voting rights for all Hong Kong residents — as well as dropping charges against anti-extradition protesters, withdrawing the characterization of a clash between police and protesters as a “riot” and dissolving the Legislative Council.

 

Protesters read the demands aloud in both English and Cantonese in videos released Saturday.

 

“We did not want to embark on this path of resisting tyranny with our bare bodies,” they said, “but for too long, our government has lied and deceived, and refused to respond to the demands of the people.”

 

While the demonstrations have been largely peaceful, some confrontations between police and protesters have turned violent. In Sha Tin district the previous Sunday, they beat each other with umbrellas and bats inside a luxury shopping center. Demonstrators broke into the Legislative Council building on July 1 by moving past barricades and shattering windows. Meanwhile, police officers have used pepper spray, tear gas, bean bag rounds and rubber bullets to quell the crowds.

 

On Friday, Hong Kong police discovered a stash of a powerful homemade explosive and arrested a man in a raid on a commercial building. Materials voicing opposition to the extradition bill were found at the site, local media said, but a police spokesman said no concrete link had been established and the investigation was continuing.

 

The People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s official newspaper, condemned “radical extremists” who attacked the legislature and “trampled” on Hong Kong’s rule of law in a front-page column Sunday. The paper said a counter-rally Saturday intended to show support for the police reflected “mainstream public opinion” in Hong Kong.

 

https://www.apnews.com/0a0597b0f8b34d6d91b84c4e754ee934

[BansheeOne]

Things got a lot more interesting overnight. Of course it's a little unfortunate if you have to call on police after clashing with them earlier when your guys assaulted various public institution, though it's their job to protect everyone regardless. Allegedly some of the attackers were seen leaving the scene in cars with mainland plates. I'm seeing a case for Chinese intervention being built.

 

JULY 22, 2019 / 3:35 AM / UPDATED AN HOUR AGO

 

Hong Kong police criticized over failure to stop attacks on protesters

 

James Pomfret, Donny Kwok

 

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong police faced criticism on Monday for an apparent failure to protect anti-government protesters and passersby from attack by suspected gang members at a train station on the weekend.

 

The attack on Sunday came during a night of violence that opened new fronts in Hong Kongs widening political crisis over an extradition bill, that could see people sent to China for trial.

 

Protesters had earlier on Sunday surrounded Chinas main representative office in the city and defaced walls and signs and clashed with police.

 

The citys Beijing-backed leader, Carrie Lam, condemned the attack on Chinas liaison office, saying it was a "challenge" to national sovereignty.

 

She condemned violent behavior of any kind and described as "shocking" the apparent attack by triad criminal gangs on ordinary citizens and protesters at the station, saying authorities would investigate fully.

 

Some politicians and activists have long linked Hong Kongs shadowy network of triad criminal gangs to political intimidation and violence in recent years, sometimes against pro-democracy activists and critics of Beijing.

 

On Sunday night, men in white T-shirts, some armed with various types of clubs, flooded into the rural Yuen Long station, and stormed a train, attacking passengers with pipes, poles and other objects, according to video footage.

 

Witnesses, including Democratic lawmaker Lam Cheuk-ting, said the men appeared to target black-shirted passengers who had been at an anti-government march.

 

The lawmaker Lam, who was wounded in the face and hospitalized, said the police ignored calls he made, pleading with to intervene and prevent bloodshed.

 

"They deliberately turned a blind eye to these attacks by triads on regular citizens", he told Reuters, saying the floors of the station were streaked with blood.

 

"I wont speculate on why they didnt help immediately", he said.

 

Forty-five people were injured in the violence at the station, with one in critical condition, according to hospital authorities.

 

A senior district police commander, Yau Nai-keung, said an initial police patrol had to wait reinforcements given a situation involving more than 100 people.

 

Yau told reporters the police had not made any arrests at the station or during a follow-up search of a nearby village, but were investigating.

 

Witnesses saw groups of men in white with poles and bamboo staves at the village but Yau said police saw no weapons when they arrived. Following some questioning of the men, they were allowed to leave, he told reporters.

 

"We cant say you have a problem because you are dressed in white and we have to arrest you. We will treat them fairly no matter which camp they are in", Yau said.

 

Police did not immediately respond to Reuters questions on the clash.

 

Hong Kongs anti-triad police units in 2014 investigated the role of triad gangs attacking protesters during the pro-democracy demonstrations that shut down parts of the city for 79 days that year.

 

[...]

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition/hong-kong-police-criticized-over-failure-to-stop-attacks-on-protesters-idUSKCN1UH02O

Edited July 22, 2019 by BansheeOne