Protests In Hong Kong

[Jeff]

 

These are some truly fine people, they really dont give a flying fuck for authority. Maybe we taught them something worth learning after all.

 

Union Jacks have been waved on the demonstrations. Theoretically the treaty for handing over guaranteed that Hong Kong keeps its democratic institutions, but that has of course been undermined by Beijing. One country two systems. Yeah, right.

 

 

It was an "honorable" agreement, full of diplomatic speak and "guarantees" of many things but anyone with a brain knew at the time it was a lie and way to remove oneself from an uncomfortable situation and to let someone else deal with the consequences down the road. They may as well have waived a piece of paper and claimed "peace in our time". Anyone who tells themselves otherwise isn't being honest with themselves.

[Murph]

The West thinks in years, the Chinese in Centuries, that is why we lose.

[R011]

Hong Kong was supposed to turn the PRC into a Western-style demicracy like they were through force of example by now.

[Stuart Galbraith]

No, capitalism was supposed to do that. Which was complete crap. Capitalism didnt do a damn thing to turn The German Empire or Tsarist Russia into Democracies, Ive no idea why they would think it would work better in a Communist state. It sure as hell didnt work in post Soviet Russia, and not that well in many former Soviet states, other than maybe the Balts.

 

Capitalism works best in Democratic states. And I think without Democracy, it would never have come into being the way it did. But it can operate fine in authoritarian regimes. I hear the Soviet Union had some quite nice little markets and black economies if you knew where to look for them. In China, it works well with massive state intervention. We of course tell ourselves that is not the way the game is played, but nobody said they had to use the same rulebook as we do.

[Nobu]

I'd hate to have seen the alternative, which was the Nationalist Chinese winning their civil war. The Sea of Japan might have been renamed the North China Sea by now.

[rmgill]

Naah, they'd have been too corrupt and broke dick to do that.

[Panzermann]

Naah, they'd have been too corrupt and broke dick to do that.

 

Yup. Mao and followers were just so much better organized and effective than the Genralissimo and his "republic".

[Stuart Galbraith]

The General had a better airline though. They should have done, they had Chenault running it.

[Panzermann]

The General had a better airline though. They should have done, they had Chenault running it.

 

Air forces do not win wars.

[Stuart Galbraith]

No, and the same one didn't in Laos and Vietnam either.

[Nobu]

Air forces may not win Chinese civil wars, but they do enable Nationalist Chinese to transport the gold reserves of the Bank of China to Taiwan in 1949. Priorities and all that.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Nobu

[Panzermann]

Air forces may not win Chinese civil wars, but they do enable Nationalist Chinese to transport the gold reserves of the Bank of China to Taiwan in 1949. Priorities and all that.

 

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

[JasonJ]

 

Air forces may not win Chinese civil wars, but they do enable Nationalist Chinese to transport the gold reserves of the Bank of China to Taiwan in 1949. Priorities and all that.

 

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

The loss of mainland China would considered a loss to the 1.2 to 2 million people that ran away from the mainland to Taiwan. Not to the 6 million that were already there. What that 6 million lost was Japanese citizenship and a sense of identity. Taiwan was not returned to China. It was "returned" to being occupied by a China. If it was a happy ending return, then the February 22 massacre in 1947 shouldn't have happened. If it was a happy ending, the "white terror" that followed the massacre shouldn't have happened. Upon occupation of Taiwan, CKS forced a change of language to Mandarin Chinese and made the local dialect Hokkien illeagal. During the years when part of Imperial Japan, Japanese was official language but Hokkien was never banned. Taiwan's first elected president was a big Pro-Japan candidate that served in the IJA AA unit and has said that he prefers talking in Japanese more than any other language.

 

Never hear about that in western media. Wonder why.

[Nobu]

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

 

Interestingly, they intended to invade the mainland in the 1960s, in an amphibious operation that would have made the Bay of Pigs look like a sensible military operation.

[JasonJ]

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

 

Interestingly, they intended to invade the mainland in the 1960s, in an amphibious operation that would have made the Bay of Pigs look like a sensible military operation.

 

That idea was so ludicrous that by that point of time it must have been just an argument to serve as a point for justifying his dictatorship by "having" that agenda.

Edited June 21, 2019 by JasonJ

[Nobu]

The oft-repeated possible alternative of bringing the fight directly to North Vietnam by invading it would not have been an appropriate prelude to the return of the Nationalists to the mainland. The Soviets might even have given their blessing.

[Panzermann]

 

 

Air forces may not win Chinese civil wars, but they do enable Nationalist Chinese to transport the gold reserves of the Bank of China to Taiwan in 1949. Priorities and all that.

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

The loss of mainland China would considered a loss to the 1.2 to 2 million people that ran away from the mainland to Taiwan. Not to the 6 million that were already there. What that 6 million lost was Japanese citizenship and a sense of identity. Taiwan was not returned to China. It was "returned" to being occupied by a China. If it was a happy ending return, then the February 22 massacre in 1947 shouldn't have happened. If it was a happy ending, the "white terror" that followed the massacre shouldn't have happened. Upon occupation of Taiwan, CKS forced a change of language to Mandarin Chinese and made the local dialect Hokkien illeagal. During the years when part of Imperial Japan, Japanese was official language but Hokkien was never banned. Taiwan's first elected president was a big Pro-Japan candidate that served in the IJA AA unit and has said that he prefers talking in Japanese more than any other language.

 

Never hear about that in western media. Wonder why.

 

 

Never said the Koumintang were nice guys. But still, they built up a well running country.

 

 

 

 

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

 

Interestingly, they intended to invade the mainland in the 1960s, in an amphibious operation that would have made the Bay of Pigs look like a sensible military operation.

 

That idea was so ludicrous that by that point of time it must have been just an argument to serve as a point for justifying his dictatorship by "having" that agenda.

 

 

They still have not given up their claim to China. Part of their founding myth.

[Nobu]

City/region/dialect/warlord-based tribalism appears to be a recurring theme for these people when left to their own devices.

 

Taiwanese native aborigines appear to vote KMT, which makes the question of who may be the oppressors and who may be the oppressed an interesting one in various ways.

[JasonJ]

 

 

 

Air forces may not win Chinese civil wars, but they do enable Nationalist Chinese to transport the gold reserves of the Bank of China to Taiwan in 1949. Priorities and all that.

 

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

The loss of mainland China would considered a loss to the 1.2 to 2 million people that ran away from the mainland to Taiwan. Not to the 6 million that were already there. What that 6 million lost was Japanese citizenship and a sense of identity. Taiwan was not returned to China. It was "returned" to being occupied by a China. If it was a happy ending return, then the February 22 massacre in 1947 shouldn't have happened. If it was a happy ending, the "white terror" that followed the massacre shouldn't have happened. Upon occupation of Taiwan, CKS forced a change of language to Mandarin Chinese and made the local dialect Hokkien illeagal. During the years when part of Imperial Japan, Japanese was official language but Hokkien was never banned. Taiwan's first elected president was a big Pro-Japan candidate that served in the IJA AA unit and has said that he prefers talking in Japanese more than any other language.

Never hear about that in western media. Wonder why.

Never said the Koumintang were nice guys. But still, they built up a well running country.

 

 

 

 

One must say that the loss of mainland china was a wakeup call for them and they put a succesful country together.

 

Interestingly, they intended to invade the mainland in the 1960s, in an amphibious operation that would have made the Bay of Pigs look like a sensible military operation.

 

That idea was so ludicrous that by that point of time it must have been just an argument to serve as a point for justifying his dictatorship by "having" that agenda.

They still have not given up their claim to China. Part of their founding myth.

Their good economy didn't really get started until the 1980s. Before thay, it was a dictatoship.

 

Well, whenever Taiwan people start talking about independence, the PRC threatens war. The claim to China is part of the one-China policy that both China's agreed too. But in the practical sense, Taiwan still keeps up with it because of China's war threats. So instead, they entertain it for sake of economic benefit with PRC. In surveys questioning their ethnical identity, usually the result is 10% answer Chinese, another 10-13% answer both Chinese-Taiwanese, and the remaining 75-79% answer Taiwanese. They just won't say that the one China does not include Taiwan becauese of PRC threat.

 

Today's official KMT states thst all of China is that of the KMT. But most of them don't really follow through with that on a practical sense. For example, the first elected president was KMT when he won in 1996. But dispite being KMT, he promoted Taiwanese identity and leaned towards independence from China. Many other KMT politicians really just seem to be playing the pragmatc card of economy and PRC threat. So in some ways, the old KMT claims on China mainland are becoming just left over words that don't apply real impact. Sort of like how over time, Japan's article 9 in its constitution has also lost actual impact.

[Nobu]

Fascinating how the indigenous aborigines of Taiwan are apparently some of the staunchest KMT supporters. Before Japan, it was these indigenous peoples who bore witness to a wave of non native migration then by the same people crying oppression now.

 

The oppressed becoming the oppressors and so it goes.

[Stuart Galbraith]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/01/hong-kong-protesters-clash-police-anniversary-handover-china/

 

Violence erupted in Hong Kong on Monday as protesters stormed the Legislative Council on the anniversary of the city’s return to Beijing, amid growing anger over a plan to allow extraditions to China.

Hundreds of masked demonstrators ran riot inside the building, forcing their way into the chamber, and smashing up doors, walls and paintings. Portraits of Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam and Chinese President Xi Jingping were torn down.

The protesters streamed into the legislature after shattering windows with metal trolleys and poles and wrenching open metal shutters. The council issued a red alert, ordering them to leave. But the riot police who had previously been pushing them back appeared to have retreated.

Earlier, police had raced toward protesters, beating some with batons and using pepper spray to thin the crowds.

As the day wore on, more people turned out to participate in a planned rally to mark the date the former British colony was given back to China in 1997. The organisers said some 550,000 attended.

 

“I wanted to add to the crowd numbers so that the government could hear the dissatisfaction of so many people,” said Gary, 35, a teacher, who declined to give his surname.

Ming, 50, a business owner, told The Daily Telegraph: “I have marched all three times. I completely support the young people and their ideals and ambitions, which is for the good of Hong Kong.

"Seeing these young people like this, if I didn’t come out, I couldn’t have that on my conscience. I’m in my fifties, what can we do for these young people? One thing we can do is come out and march."

Pro-democracy activists use the handover anniversary every year to march through Hong Kong calling for greater freedoms, though have failed to win any concessions from Beijing.

Coming after three weeks of ongoing rallies, this year's rally took on even greater significance.

 

 

 

Not just stormed it, they actually went so far to re-raise the Hong Kong Flag with the Union Jack on it....

Edited July 1, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[JasonJ]

Just saw that flag in the legislature room on the Japanese TV night news.

[JasonJ]

[Stuart Galbraith]

The PRC probably ought to reflect on the fact that this is the ONLY part of the British Empire that having left, wants to come back.

[sunday]

The PRC probably ought to reflect on the fact that this is the ONLY part of the British Empire that having left, wants to come back.

 

It should be remembered that HK did not leave willingly into the warm embrace of a Communist Totalitarian state.

Edited July 2, 2019 by sunday