Protests In Hong Kong

[Stuart Galbraith]

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

 

I dont think we know whats going to happen, because inevitably, most other nations are going to take a cue from the US. Nobody really knows how Trump will react to bloodshed, not even his supporters.

 

I THINK that a lack of any concern by the US, might actually create a counter response, ie, 'well the US isn't doing anything but 'we' will', but who knows would lead a charge like that. I think the Europe is too concerned about Brexit at the moment to lead the charge.

 

We said much earlier the US might content itself with arming Taiwan to the teeth. In truth it already is, and maybe that alone is enough to cause the Chicoms some real pain.

[Ssnake]

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

 

We have lost the ability to enforce liberal democracy. The last time it was attempted, Iraq 2003, was a failure, and in the meantime our strength has further eroded. But that doesn't mean that we can't at least be advocates of it, rather than timidly keeping our mouths shut and resuming trade with China after a token period of stern letters.

[glenn239]

 

So lets say tomorrow they storm Hong Kong. They kill a small number of people, say 500. Whats the betting an appreciable number of those protesters either have camera phones, or are killed using camera phones? Then they instantly up it on youtube. We still pretend its the same old world where you can hide truth. That really is not the case anymore. If anyone applies themselves, everything has the ability to be a journalist now. Look at what happened in Kiev in 2014 and you will see my point. Any intervention in Hong Kong is going to chance losing significant markets, perhaps even enough to bring the regime down. And that perhaps is the best reason why they have yet to intervene.

 

 

Why would occupying Hong Kong lead to 500 civilian deaths? They can do it with 0 civilian deaths.

 

 

 

[shep854]

Two differences between HK and India: Britain is fundamentally a moral, compassionate culture despite acts performed by groups using that culture as cover, while Communist China is at its core amoral and utterly pragmatic. If Ghandi had tried pacifism against Nazis...

ALSO, England is half a world away from India, wereas China is just a few miles away, right across the strait.

Edited August 20, 2019 by shep854

[Nobu]

Considering their advanced technology and economic level, that the Nationalist Chinese/Taiwanese continue to operate an improved Gato class submarine in active service speaks volumes in regard to how existential their desperation to arm themselves to the teeth is in various ways.

 

Saying that their peril is dire is on thing. Paying the price for it as the Israelis do is quite another.

[JasonJ]

Considering their advanced technology and economic level, that the Nationalist Chinese/Taiwanese continue to operate an improved Gato class submarine in active service speaks volumes in regard to how existential their desperation to arm themselves to the teeth is in various ways.

 

Saying that their peril is dire is on thing. Paying the price for it as the Israelis do is quite another.

Too little informative. Too much disinformation.

[Jeff]

 

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

 

I dont think we know whats going to happen, because inevitably, most other nations are going to take a cue from the US. Nobody really knows how Trump will react to bloodshed, not even his supporters.

 

I THINK that a lack of any concern by the US, might actually create a counter response, ie, 'well the US isn't doing anything but 'we' will', but who knows would lead a charge like that. I think the Europe is too concerned about Brexit at the moment to lead the charge.

 

We said much earlier the US might content itself with arming Taiwan to the teeth. In truth it already is, and maybe that alone is enough to cause the Chicoms some real pain.

 

 

HK was a British colony and was ceded to the ChiComs by a British treaty. Britain also fancies itself as a first world leader and certainly has no problem with telling others how they're doing it wrong. Why shouldn't Britain be expected to take the lead on the world's response to its former colony being curb stomped and its treaty getting shredded? Yes, the US is the leader of the free world. Yes, freedom loving people should make their anger clear if the ChiComs curb stomp HK. BUT the UK shouldn't be standing by and waiting for someone else to lead on an issue that the UK clearly has the most to do with and to lose from morally. What is the real world solution in your eyes? Just what is the world capable of doing and more importantly willing to do? The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of destabilization, unlawful nuclearization and terrorism in the world, Iran. The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of nuclear proliferation, destabilization and oppression, NK. Only to turn around to see the rest of the free world tsk tsking about our uncouth nature and taking us to task for upsetting their carefully crafted commercial agreements. Nope, let's see how the pros do it. This one has Britain's name all over it. Take us to school, please. Wait, there's that pesky "Brexit" excuse and that chronic "our leaders suck" excuse. Well, the world won't wait for Britain to pull its head out and get a clue. I guess they'll have to walk and chew gum at the same time. We're waiting, fire away. Is that putting it bluntly, yes.

[glenn239]

East India Company flag

 

 

Jeff, I think this East India flag might be more what the British have in mind for things like Hong Kong.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

 

I dont think we know whats going to happen, because inevitably, most other nations are going to take a cue from the US. Nobody really knows how Trump will react to bloodshed, not even his supporters.

 

I THINK that a lack of any concern by the US, might actually create a counter response, ie, 'well the US isn't doing anything but 'we' will', but who knows would lead a charge like that. I think the Europe is too concerned about Brexit at the moment to lead the charge.

 

We said much earlier the US might content itself with arming Taiwan to the teeth. In truth it already is, and maybe that alone is enough to cause the Chicoms some real pain.

HK was a British colony and was ceded to the ChiComs by a British treaty. Britain also fancies itself as a first world leader and certainly has no problem with telling others how they're doing it wrong. Why shouldn't Britain be expected to take the lead on the world's response to its former colony being curb stomped and its treaty getting shredded? Yes, the US is the leader of the free world. Yes, freedom loving people should make their anger clear if the ChiComs curb stomp HK. BUT the UK shouldn't be standing by and waiting for someone else to lead on an issue that the UK clearly has the most to do with and to lose from morally. What is the real world solution in your eyes? Just what is the world capable of doing and more importantly willing to do? The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of destabilization, unlawful nuclearization and terrorism in the world, Iran. The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of nuclear proliferation, destabilization and oppression, NK. Only to turn around to see the rest of the free world tsk tsking about our uncouth nature and taking us to task for upsetting their carefully crafted commercial agreements. Nope, let's see how the pros do it. This one has Britain's name all over it. Take us to school, please. Wait, there's that pesky "Brexit" excuse and that chronic "our leaders suck" excuse. Well, the world won't wait for Britain to pull its head out and get a clue. I guess they'll have to walk and chew gum at the same time. We're waiting, fire away. Is that putting it bluntly, yes.

As I said before, do a Google search for 'new territories',and you will see why we gave it up. Half a city simply wasn't sustainable. We got the best deal that was going at the time, and I note neither Presidents Reagan, Bush or Clinton found fault with it.

 

Back then the PRC could be trusted, and now, clearly, it cannot.

[BansheeOne]

Would also fit the information warfare thread.

 

August 19, 2019 / 8:34 PM / Updated 15 hours ago

Twitter, Facebook accuse China of using fake accounts to undermine Hong Kong protests

Katie Paul, Elizabeth Culliford

(Reuters) - Twitter Inc (TWTR.N) and Facebook Inc (FB.O) said on Monday they had dismantled a state-backed social media campaign originating in mainland China that sought to undermine protests in Hong Kong.

Twitter said it suspended 936 accounts and the operations appeared to be a coordinated state-backed effort originating in China. It said these accounts were just the most active portions of this campaign and that a “larger, spammy network” of approximately 200,000 accounts had been proactively suspended before they were substantially active.

 

Facebook said it had removed accounts and pages from a small network after a tip from Twitter. It said that its investigation found links to individuals associated with the Chinese government.

 

[...]

 

Examples of posts provided by Twitter included a tweet from a user with photos of protesters storming Hong Kong’s Legislative Council building, which asked: “Are these people who smashed the Legco crazy or taking benefits from the bad guys? It’s a complete violent behavior, we don’t want you radical people in Hong Kong. Just get out of here!”

 

In examples provided by Facebook, posts described the protesters as cockroaches who “refused to show their faces.”

 

Facebook’s head of cybersecurity policy Nathaniel Gleicher told reporters that the bulk of the Facebook accounts were created in 2018.

 

Both Twitter and Facebook are blocked in mainland China by the government but available in Hong Kong.

 

TWITTER CHANGES AD POLICY

Twitter and Facebook have come under fire from users over showing ads from state-controlled media that criticized the Hong Kong protesters.

 

In response, Twitter said Monday it would no longer accept advertising from state-controlled news media. Twitter told Reuters the advertising change was not related to the suspended accounts. (bit.ly/2Za5Pxn)

 

In the past week, China’s official Xinhua news agency and state broadcaster China Global Television Network (CGTN) paid to promote videos that portrayed the protests as violent and said Hong Kong citizens wanted the demonstrations to end, according to Twitter’s Ads Transparency Center.

 

Twitter said it did not have data on how much revenue it generates from state-controlled media advertising.

 

[...]

 

In a tweet on Sunday, China’s influential state-run tabloid, The Global Times, hailed the response of Chinese “netizens” to the protests, saying: “Chinese netizens’ power! Amid escalating protests in Hong Kong, Chinese netizens on Saturday swept Facebook and Instagram to denounce secessionist posts and show support for Hong Kong police.”

 

About 98% of social network users in Hong Kong, or 4.7 million people, will log into Facebook at least once a month in 2019, according to eMarketer projections, while 9.4% of social network users will use Twitter.

 

Shares of Facebook rose 1.3% and Twitter rose 2.8%.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-twitter/twitter-facebook-accuse-china-of-using-fake-accounts-to-undermine-hong-kong-protests-idUSKCN1V91NX?il=0

[Nobu]

That China and Chinese have not resorted to a violent crackdown is concerning, as the calculus of public protest depends upon the ability of the movement to provoke a response in various ways.

 

What is also concerning is the shift of the protesters away from escalation, almost as if these Hongkongese in their cool black tees, like the Nationalist Chinese/Taiwanese, would prefer someone else do the actual fighting against the PRC for them.

[Jeff]

 

East India Company flag

 

 

Jeff, I think this East India flag might be more what the British have in mind for things like Hong Kong.

 

 

I apologize, I'm at a loss. Create a company with global reach and it's own laws and military and have them deal with it?

[Jeff]

 

 

 

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

I dont think we know whats going to happen, because inevitably, most other nations are going to take a cue from the US. Nobody really knows how Trump will react to bloodshed, not even his supporters.

 

I THINK that a lack of any concern by the US, might actually create a counter response, ie, 'well the US isn't doing anything but 'we' will', but who knows would lead a charge like that. I think the Europe is too concerned about Brexit at the moment to lead the charge.

 

We said much earlier the US might content itself with arming Taiwan to the teeth. In truth it already is, and maybe that alone is enough to cause the Chicoms some real pain.

HK was a British colony and was ceded to the ChiComs by a British treaty. Britain also fancies itself as a first world leader and certainly has no problem with telling others how they're doing it wrong. Why shouldn't Britain be expected to take the lead on the world's response to its former colony being curb stomped and its treaty getting shredded? Yes, the US is the leader of the free world. Yes, freedom loving people should make their anger clear if the ChiComs curb stomp HK. BUT the UK shouldn't be standing by and waiting for someone else to lead on an issue that the UK clearly has the most to do with and to lose from morally. What is the real world solution in your eyes? Just what is the world capable of doing and more importantly willing to do? The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of destabilization, unlawful nuclearization and terrorism in the world, Iran. The US took the lead on confronting an incorrigible leader of nuclear proliferation, destabilization and oppression, NK. Only to turn around to see the rest of the free world tsk tsking about our uncouth nature and taking us to task for upsetting their carefully crafted commercial agreements. Nope, let's see how the pros do it. This one has Britain's name all over it. Take us to school, please. Wait, there's that pesky "Brexit" excuse and that chronic "our leaders suck" excuse. Well, the world won't wait for Britain to pull its head out and get a clue. I guess they'll have to walk and chew gum at the same time. We're waiting, fire away. Is that putting it bluntly, yes.

As I said before, do a Google search for 'new territories',and you will see why we gave it up. Half a city simply wasn't sustainable. We got the best deal that was going at the time, and I note neither Presidents Reagan, Bush or Clinton found fault with it.

 

Back then the PRC could be trusted, and now, clearly, it cannot.

 

 

Great, that was then. What do we do now? As for trusting the PRC, If anyone expected anything else than this, they were fools. I'm surprised it took this long. Ok, so the hand dealt back then sucked. What is the policy moving forward?

 

You're very good at faulting the past. You're very good at stating what's wrong with other's plans today. What is the solution according to Stuart Galbraith, now, today. You're Prime Minister for a day, have at it.

 

I don't have any magic answers, I admit that.

[Nobu]

Finding a way to get this Carrie Lam out of the picture would be a start, as her convictions, misplaced they may be, are also of iron.

[rmgill]

It's called google. And they're helping the Chinese.

[Jeff]

It's called google. And they're helping the Chinese.

 

Seriously, it's like a US company manufacturing something for the Nazis to help them round up Jews in the 1930s. How are they not a national pariah? They are actively helping the ChiComs oppress their people and making a tidy profit doing it.

[Mikel2]

 

 

It's called google. And they're helping the Chinese.

Seriously, it's like a US company manufacturing something for the Nazis to help them round up Jews in the 1930s. How are they not a national pariah? They are actively helping the ChiComs oppress their people and making a tidy profit doing it.

 

You are obviously not woke enough to recognize the real fascism, which originates in the US.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

How do you say "Don't be evil" in Mandarin?

 

Oh that's right. Google did away with that motto and became the personification of evil. Google actively supports totalitarian governments against the United States.

It amazes me that they can get away with that in today's political environment but I guess when you control the access to the news then things get easier.

[Nobu]

It could be said that Google is a reflection of the United States itself, both of which have increasingly discarded their don't be evil mantra in exchange for other concerns in various ways.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Nobu

[sunday]

 

It's called google. And they're helping the Chinese.

 

Seriously, it's like a US company manufacturing something for the Nazis to help them round up Jews in the 1930s. How are they not a national pariah? They are actively helping the ChiComs oppress their people and making a tidy profit doing it.

 

 

IBM did that, you know.

[Ssnake]

Technically, it was the Hollerith machines sold to Germany before IBM was officially founded in 1924 ... but then again the Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company existed since 1911 already, so... yeah, it was IBM. And they didn't just sell the machines to non-Nazi Germans before 1930, they rendered assistance from '33-'45 through their subsidiary DEHOMAG (Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen-AG). Fortunately, the Ford Motor Company sold no trucks to the Nazis at the time... uh, wait, LOL.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Member of the British consulate detained at the Chinese border.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49403619

[Tim the Tank Nut]

at what point does the UK protest?

 

or are we still working with Werb's Chamberlain impersonation?

[Paul G.]

https://twitter.com/htommy998/status/1161865242009206785?s=09

[Stuart Galbraith]

at what point does the UK protest?

 

or are we still working with Werb's Chamberlain impersonation?

He is no Chamberlain.

 

We have protested, but its PRC. What you going to do? Even nuclear weapons would barely make a dent on them.