Protests In Hong Kong

[Ssnake]

I'm a little surprised they didn't cut basic services as a way to turn opinion against the protesters nonviolently.

 

I'd argue that the CPoC sees "governmental competence and efficiency" as their "brand's" "core statements". You don't want to be seen unable to render public services in the face of a handful of student/"terrorist" protestors/"counterrevolutionaries". Or they are divided/undecided yet what to do (but they could never admit that), so we're seeing a number of contingency plans until there's the one domino piece that sets everything else in motion, whichever direction it may go.

[sunday]

CEO of airline Cathay Pacific did the right thing.

The Chinese government accused Cathay Pacific employees of participating in “illegal protests,” and requested that the airline start sharing all information about employees not only flying to China, but also passing through Chinese airspace.

Apparently this is also what led to Hogg’s resignation. According to media reports, China’s Civil Aviation Administration asked Hogg to hand over a list of Cathay Pacific employees who had participated in the protests.

According to these media sources, he did provide that report… but he put only put his own name on the list. Wow.

https://onemileatatime.com/cathay-pacific-ceo-resignation-backstory/

[Mikel2]

 

 

 

Im disappointed they have not raised the ROC flag....

 

They were never part of the Republic of China. They were a British Crown Colony at that time. I do note they aren't flying the flag of the country that gave them to the PRC.

 

By now I've actually seen plenty of flags in the protests, including the British and Taiwanese.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, at this point I have to reflect which flag is going to piss the PRC off the most.

 

 

 

When the Taiwanese flag is present, is there even a contest?

[sunday]

East India Company flag

[Stargrunt6]

Leadership

 

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3765103

[Nobu]

East India Company flag

 

 

Interesting, I don't believe I have ever seen that flag before.

[Paul G.]

China needs to crush this with force. Let the tanks roll and end this liberal up-rising.

I'm noticing a trend here.

[R011]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im disappointed they have not raised the ROC flag....

They were never part of the Republic of China. They were a British Crown Colony at that time. I do note they aren't flying the flag of the country that gave them to the PRC.

By now I've actually seen plenty of flags in the protests, including the British and Taiwanese.

 

 

 

 

Yep, at this point I have to reflect which flag is going to piss the PRC off the most.

 

When the Taiwanese flag is present, is there even a contest?

Rising Sun flags would create an interesting reaction. Mind yoy, that would be as likely as Israeli protesters flying Federal Republic of Germany flags.

[rmgill]

What's notable is that we're seeing flags of western Imperial/Colonialism as more desirable than the assertion of Chinese Communist authority over Hong Kong.

That's something that flies in the face of the Anti-western/Anti-Imperialist/Anti-colonial stance of the woke progressives.

[rmgill]

Does anyone here think having a US style armed populace in Hong Kong start to light up the security forces there would actually end well? There's a place for self-serving fantasy, but I don't think playing Red Dawn in a city of 7 million people has a lot to commend it.

I'm confused. How is laying down and taking it as a dissident in a nation where they divide people up for spare body parts a good ending?

 

The ONLY way for it to end well for you PERSONALLY is to acquiesce to what the Chinese Government decides is proper to do and hope you're not part of the main stream of sending people off to gulags.

 

If your choice is fight and die, fight with guns, take some with you and die or be part of the moloch like machine, why is fighting with guns and dying considered bad?

 

True, the People of Hong Kong fighting the PRC police and government forces would be awful. A full on turn all the local shops into gun manufactures and fight with arms there in the streets would be bloody. BUT, what's in it for the Chinese if they destroy Hong Kong in doing so. It's a game of chicken. Hong Kong is MOST useful if it can make money. If it's destroyed in the process of an armed insurrection, how is that a win for the government?

Edited August 20, 2019 by rmgill

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Does anyone here think having a US style armed populace in Hong Kong start to light up the security forces there would actually end well? There's a place for self-serving fantasy, but I don't think playing Red Dawn in a city of 7 million people has a lot to commend it.

I'm confused. How is laying down and taking it as a dissident in a nation where they divide people up for spare body parts a good ending?

 

The ONLY way for it to end well for you PERSONALLY is to acquiesce to what the Chinese Government decides is proper to do and hope you're not part of the main stream of sending people off to gulags.

 

If your choice is fight and die, fight with guns, take some with you and die or be part of the moloch like machine, why is fighting with guns and dying considered bad?

 

True, the People of Hong Kong fighting the PRC police and government forces would be awful. A full on turn all the local shops into gun manufactures and fight with arms there in the streets would be bloody. BUT, what's in it for the Chinese if they destroy Hong Kong in doing so. It's a game of chicken. Hong Kong is MOST useful if it can make money. If it's destroyed in the process of an armed insurrection, how is that a win for the government?

 

 

 

I disagree with you almost 90 percent of the time Ryan, and yet I agree with you here, fighting for liberty, dying for liberty, is no shame. I dont personally think you even need to be armed to do it. If they lay down in the street arm in arm and were shot unarmed, it would have far more effect upon global opinion than if they went down shooting. It did at Tiananmen. But as a point of principle, I don't disagree.

 

And no, I hope that doesn't happen to these protesters. Although I dont see their or China's future prospects improving a damn unless there is a bloodletting, sadly.

[sunday]

(...)

I disagree with you almost 90 percent of the time Ryan, and yet I agree with you here, fighting for liberty, dying for liberty, is no shame. I dont personally think you even need to be armed to do it. If they lay down in the street arm in arm and were shot unarmed, it would have far more effect upon global opinion than if they went down shooting. It did at Tiananmen. But as a point of principle, I don't disagree.

 

(...)

That sheeplike behavior could have an effect on global opinion, but it has not had any practical effect on true wolves that do not bother about being seeing as wolves. The PRC is the second national economy on Earth now. PRC leadership could not care less about the opinion of the people of Western countries, especially if the leadership of those Western countries is venal enough to give them rocket technology. Remember the Clintons and the Loral case.

 

When the people of Spain, against all hope, took their hunting shotguns and went to shoot every Frenchman in sight, then the fall of Napoleon started. Spain lost* most of her territory across the oceans did not recover for a century, however.

 

* Loss quite helped by some nominal ally, by the way.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

(...)

I disagree with you almost 90 percent of the time Ryan, and yet I agree with you here, fighting for liberty, dying for liberty, is no shame. I dont personally think you even need to be armed to do it. If they lay down in the street arm in arm and were shot unarmed, it would have far more effect upon global opinion than if they went down shooting. It did at Tiananmen. But as a point of principle, I don't disagree.

 

(...)

That sheeplike behavior could have an effect on global opinion, but it has not had any practical effect on true wolves that do not bother about being seeing as wolves. The PRC is the second national economy on Earth now. PRC leadership could not care less about the opinion of the people of Western countries, especially if the leadership of those Western countries is venal enough to give them rocket technology. Remember the Clintons and the Loral case.

 

When the people of Spain, against all hope, took their hunting shotguns and went to shoot every Frenchman in sight, then the fall of Napoleon started. Spain lost* most of her territory across the oceans did not recover for a century, however.

 

* Loss quite helped by some nominal ally, by the way.

 

 

I'm not so sure. It was exactly that kind of behavior that got Britain out of India. You cant easily fight against people that wont fight. Look at the success of Solidarity, which was probably the single crack that brought down the Soviet Unions European Empire.

 

For another, when the Chinese military stormed Tianamen square, it hit China's image hard, but did it hit trade? Not much, because back then we were exporting to China, not importing. Its the other way around now. There are dozens of countries that would just LOVE to slap tariffs on Chinese imports, if they thought everyone else was going to do it too. Id argue that china needs its western markets far more than we need it. Oh, the financial institutions will cry in their milk. But who else will give a damn if rubber dog shit isnt available at cheap prices? We were swimming in Cheap steel imports which we would just love to turn off if we could. A bloodletting would be just the opportunity. Even Trump can look like a hero by avenging the fallen in this fashion.

 

As for the right, everyone has the right to fight against a tyrannical regime. On that one you and Ryan are perfectly right. We did the same thing in 1940 when we had what was perceived as zero chance of success. Because as Churchill understood, even losing the right way can give opportunities for the future. I guess the Finn's against the Soviet Union is the best example of that kind of thinking working out.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[rmgill]

I'm not so sure. It was exactly that kind of behavior that got Britain out of India. You cant easily fight against people that wont fight.

It's quote easy. You load them into train cars and ship them off to industrialized extermination camps. You just have to have ZERO fucks to give about the humanity.

 

The crown did. Hence why the tactic worked. Nonviolent protest got the Scholl's beheaded.

 

Does the PRC give a fuck about humanity?

[Ssnake]

Nominally they care more than anyone else, because Communism is for The Greater Good.

History shows, Commies are A-OK with mountains of bodies. Man has invented no more destructive ideology than this.

[sunday]

 

I'm not so sure. It was exactly that kind of behavior that got Britain out of India. You cant easily fight against people that wont fight.

It's quote easy. You load them into train cars and ship them off to industrialized extermination camps. You just have to have ZERO fucks to give about the humanity.

 

The crown did. Hence why the tactic worked. Nonviolent protest got the Scholl's beheaded.

 

Does the PRC give a fuck about humanity?

 

 

Members of Falun Gong did not fight. They ended providing organs for transplants.

[DB]

That approach - civil disobedience - only works when the sheer scale of it overwhelms the national civil and/or military capability to manage it.

 

Hence my comment about any visible signs of crackdowns in the "core" of China.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

I'm not so sure. It was exactly that kind of behavior that got Britain out of India. You cant easily fight against people that wont fight.

It's quote easy. You load them into train cars and ship them off to industrialized extermination camps. You just have to have ZERO fucks to give about the humanity.

 

The crown did. Hence why the tactic worked. Nonviolent protest got the Scholl's beheaded.

 

Does the PRC give a fuck about humanity?

 

Communists never do. But these are Capitalist Communists. They might not care about anything else, but they apparently care about the bottom line.

 

When they went into Tianamen square, there were 2 important differences. Firstly they had no markets in the west worth a damn to care about. Secondly they could, fairly effectively, close down the place to media. There does not exist as far as know any footage worth a damn of what happened there.

 

So lets say tomorrow they storm Hong Kong. They kill a small number of people, say 500. Whats the betting an appreciable number of those protesters either have camera phones, or are killed using camera phones? Then they instantly up it on youtube. We still pretend its the same old world where you can hide truth. That really is not the case anymore. If anyone applies themselves, everything has the ability to be a journalist now. Look at what happened in Kiev in 2014 and you will see my point. Any intervention in Hong Kong is going to chance losing significant markets, perhaps even enough to bring the regime down. And that perhaps is the best reason why they have yet to intervene.

 

Here is my problem with your viewpoint, and im on board for most of it. You hate authoritarian regimes. So do I. You think any government can become an authoritarian state, and I agree. You want to do something about it if it happens, so would I. The problem is you pretend by replicating the weapons of the regime, you can contain them. In 1776, you were surely right. Considering how few predator drones or ICBM's are in the hands of the general public today, I don't personally think such considerations apply anymore.

 

Could they shoot PRC soldiers? Sure, or hatchets or baseball bats. I dont reject their right to do so if they use violence (which to their great credit they avoided). But its still 7 million against a 2 million man military armed with strategic bombers, tanks and nuclear weapons. Giving them all a rifle is not going to make a damn bit of difference. Oh, it would be a fine gesture, of the kind the Spartans would approve of. It might even, at some length, create political change. Is it going to make a concrete difference? No. For the same reason it didn't in Fallujah, or Basra, or all the other places similar things occurred in the war on terror.

 

Im not knocking the right to bear arms, im suggesting that it doesn't earn you anything but a bumper sticker these days.

[sunday]

On international sanctions, it would work a general deportation of PRC nationals living/working/studying abroad in Western countries, followed by confiscation of real estate and other forms of offshore wealth? That could provoke some cracks in the Chinese Communist Party.

 

Also, it would lower the real estate prices in Vancouver, London, New York...

Edited August 20, 2019 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

On international sanctions, it would work a general deportation of PRC nationals living/working/studying abroad in Western countries, followed by confiscation of real estate and other forms of offshore wealth? That could provoke some cracks in the Chinese Communist Party.

 

Sure. And that I think they can see, and is the real reason why they haven't cracked heads, as they surely want to. They must be terrified of the Pandora's box they have opened. Their best chance I would guess is that they hope everyone will get pissed off and go home. Which with past Umbrella protest's has been the case.

 

Here is my cynicism and my concern. In these circumstances, would Trump lead the charge against China and bring in sanctions? Or would he look at the rest of the world doing it, witness a business opportunity, and hold out the hand of friendship to get a great deal? I dont know. I hope the former, I suspect the latter.

[JasonJ]

There are fewer international cameras in Xinjiang, thus the bloody longterm crackdown over there and mass scale of detention makes its pass thus far, a response far heavier than the few Uyghurs that took a path a radicalization due to PRC pressure. If international attention and free flowing cameras and internet on HK was at an equivalent low level to that on Xinjiang, then the PRC would be doing the same thing in HK as what ks happening in Xinjiang.

[JasonJ]

US government started to weigh in some statements.

US Vice President Mike Pence has urged China to respect Hong Kong's laws, as mass protests continue in the Chinese territory.

 

There are growing concerns in the United States that Beijing may use armed force against demonstrators in Hong Kong opposed to a controversial extradition bill.

 

China has deployed armed police in the city of Shenzhen, which neighbors Hong Kong.

 

In a speech in the US State of Michigan on Monday, Pence said Beijing needs to honor its commitments, including those it made through the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration to respect the integrity of Hong Kong's laws.

 

He warned it will be much harder for the US to make a trade deal with China if something violent happens in Hong Kong.

 

Pence also said the US administration will continue to urge Beijing to act in a humanitarian manner and for China and the demonstrators to resolve their differences peaceably.

 

The Chinese government says the problem in Hong Kong is purely a domestic matter.

 

The US government appears to want to pressure China over the Hong Kong issue as trade frictions between the two countries continue.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190820_10/

[JasonJ]

And from Taiwan.

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) – President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) received a delegation from Japan’s Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) on Tuesday (Aug. 20) and vowed to bolster relations between Taiwan and Japan while demonstrating support for Hong Kong protestors.

 

The delegation was headed by Hajime Sasaki (佐佐木紀), director of a local junior chamber of the LDP. Among the members was Shunsuke Takei (武井俊輔), who had also attended the annual Asian Pacific Parliamentarians’ Union (APPU) held in Taiwan earlier this month.

 

The APPU meeting adopted the theme of “Oceans of Democracy and a Sustainable Indo-Pacific,” values shared by Taiwan and Japan, said Tsai. Japan will take the baton as host of the event next year, she added.

 

The president congratulated the Japanese politicians for the LDP’s wins in the upper house elections in July. While hailing the democratic values shared by both sides, Tsai expressed her hope that Hong Kong, which is reeling from months-long protests, would someday be able to enjoy what Taiwan enjoys today.

 

The president also urged support for Taiwan to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), a multinational trade agreement spearhead by Japan. Taiwan's effort to be included in the trade bloc has been hampered by multiple issues, including the island’s ban on the import of agricultural products from Japanese prefectures affected by the Fukushima Daiichi disaster in March 2011.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3765488

[Jeff]

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

[Murph]

Does anyone really think the West would do more than a few niggling sanctions and very stern letters if the ChiComs curb stomp HK? Don't think the ChiComs don't know that either. They'd prefer it not come to that but the end result is non-negotiable, HK will be brought to heel and the West will do nothing of consequence about it no matter the methods used. The HKs will truly be faced with a "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees" decision. The silver lining is think of all the "donor" organs the West will have available once it's over.

I agree.