Jump to content

Midway—77 Years Ago, Today.


Recommended Posts

(snip remarks only pertaining to the troll-feeding)

 

US Army infantry shortage. IIRC it had already happened in WW1. Anybody knowing to what degree that had been taken into consideration? Did the army expect WW2 casualty rates to be like the actual ones from WW1 and calculated replacements on this basis?

 

It did to a degree, but was handled by Pershing in France by the designation of various divisions as replacement units. That was also done in World War II for a while, two divisions were designated for replacement training for a while. The casualty rates were expected to be similar, but it was the apportionment of the percentages between the various arms and services that was miscalculated by a false assumption on the potential loss rates in the new Armored Force, which led to an underestimation of the potential loss rates in the Infantry, which, contrary to expectation, continued to suffer around 90% of all ground forces losses. IIRC, Trevor and I covered that subject in the Attrition Handbook. It is also well-covered in Kreider's History of U.S. Army Mobilization and is touched on in Palmer, Wiley, & Keast, The Procurement and Training of Ground Combat Troops, as well as various of the precursor AGF studies on the subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 922
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

 

The Japanese military was hoping for the kind of peace Germany got in 1919 only better. The Allies were not interested in a twenty year armistice as that peace was presciently described by Foch.

They could have got terms as good from 1942 on - as soon as it was obvious that they could not win. Japan had no one but its government and its military masters to blame for the war and its consequences.

US adminstration and US expansion was the greater cause of the war. They put the philippines out as their choice of place for a quick and decisive war. They conspired the war. Japan triedto avoid until it was only too obvious that the US was just using time as leverage.

 

Are there special drugs in Japan that you take to dream up this revisionist crap? Please, educate us, tell us about this great offensive build up the United States had in the Western Pacific just waiting for Japan to let down its guard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

The Japanese military was hoping for the kind of peace Germany got in 1919 only better. The Allies were not interested in a twenty year armistice as that peace was presciently described by Foch.

They could have got terms as good from 1942 on - as soon as it was obvious that they could not win. Japan had no one but its government and its military masters to blame for the war and its consequences.

 

US adminstration and US expansion was the greater cause of the war. They put the philippines out as their choice of place for a quick and decisive war. They conspired the war. Japan triedto avoid until it was only too obvious that the US was just using time as leverage.

Are there special drugs in Japan that you take to dream up this revisionist crap? Please, educate us, tell us about this great offensive build up the United States had in the Western Pacific just waiting for Japan to let down its guard.

The US Pacific fleet was assembled in early 1940 and then relocated to Hawaii by FDR in the summer of 1940, against the objection of the fleet commander. He was relieved. Fleet was formally designated in early 1941. Defenses of the Philippines started to be built up by the summer of 1941. M3 Stuart tanks were received in October. US negotiators were just delaying as long as the can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few remarks:

 

World War 1 ended de facto with the unconditional surrender of Germany. Neither the terms of the armistice agreement, nor the so called peace treaty were up for negotiation. At Versailles the Entente declined to so much as speak to the German delegation. A complete occupation wasn't necessary as the Germans did what the winners demanded.

 

Japan started the war. First with China, than with everybody else. The committed war crimes everywhere and even used chemical and biological WMD. Nevertheless they were given milder terms than the Third Reich. Which they promptly rejected. See: Potsdam Declaration. As far as an alternative history occupation of California by Japan is concerned, the only place the Japanese behaved themselves was Formosa. So I wouldn’t hold my breath.

 

US Army infantry shortage. IIRC it had already happened in WW1. Anybody knowing to what degree that had been taken into consideration? Did the army expect WW2 casualty rates to be like the actual ones from WW1 and calculated replacements on this basis?

One of your worse posts on these boards.

 

I'm giving myself a break from this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The US Pacific fleet was assembled in early 1940 and then relocated to Hawaii by FDR in the summer of 1940, against the objection of the fleet commander. He was relieved. Fleet was formally designated in early 1941. Defenses of the Philippines started to be built up by the summer of 1941. M3 Stuart tanks were received in October. US negotiators were just delaying as long as the can.

 

Sigh...no the US Pacific Fleet was already "assembled" as early as October 1939...it was the primary fleet of the United States Navy, the Atlantic, since after World War I, being allocated merely a squadron. It did relocate from the West Coast (primarily San Diego and San Francisco) to Hawaii in May 1940. It did get redesignated from the "Pacific Fleet" to the "US Fleet", which was really just recognizing the reality...it was the only US fleet of any consequence, given the "Asiatic Fleet" was actually smaller than the "Atlantic Squadron". At the same time, the former Atlantic Squadron was also redesignated, as the "Patrol Force", obviously also a significant event. By that time, the following events had occurred:

 

1931

18 September: Liu-Tiao-Kou Incident (outbreak of Manchurian Incident) Japanese forces occupied Mukden, Changchun and Kirin.

26 October: US Government called on Japan and China to abide by the Non-Aggression Pact.

1932

7 January: US Government notified Japan and China of her non-recognition of the status quo in Manchuria.

15 March: US Government announced non-recognition of Manchukuo.

1933

24 February: General Assembly of League of Nations approved Lytton Report.

25 February: US supported resolution of League of Nations.

27 March: Japan issued notice of withdrawal from League of Nations.

31 May: Truce agreement reached between Japan and China.

5 July: Agreement reached between Japan and China whereby Japan withdrew from North China.

7 August: Kwantung Army withdrew to Great Wall line.

1934

23 October: Preliminary conference for Naval Disarmament Conference held in London.

29 December: Japan denounced London Treaty.

1935

9 December: Five-power naval disarmament conference held in London.

1936

15 January: Japan withdrew from Naval Disarmament Conference in London.

1937

27 March: Japan notified British Government of non-participation in conference for limiting guns aboard capital ships.

7 July: Marco Polo Bridge (Lukouchiao) Incident begun – origin of Sino-Japanese Incident.

6 October: US Government issued a statement accusing Japan of violating the Kellogg Peace Pact.

12 December: Japanese aircraft attack and sink USS Panay in the Yangtze River.

1938

1 July: Department of State notified aircraft manufacturers and exporters that the United States Government was strongly opposed to the sale of airplanes and aeronautical equipment to countries whose armed forces were using airplanes for attack on civilian populations.

1939

26 July: US notified Japan of the abrogation of the US-Japan Treaty of Commerce and Navigation in consequence of Japan’s continued attack on American citizens and encroach on American interests in China.

4 November: US repealed Arms Embargo Act.

 

The "build up" of the Philippines began 25 July 1941. By then, the following had occurred:

 

1940

4 June: US embargo on export of machine tools to Japan.

2 July: US Export Control Act passed authorizing the President, in the interest of national defense, to prohibit or curtail the export of basic war materials.

22 July: "The Outline for Handling Current Affairs with a Shift in the World Situation" was approved at the Imperial General Headquarters and Government Liaison Conference.

25 July: Partial US ban certain grades of steel and scrap iron, and some lubricants.

26 July: US issues ambiguous regulation restricting export licenses for aviation gasoline, which could be interpreted to include virtually all POL products.

27 July: "Principles to Cope with the Changing World Situation" approved by Japanese Cabinet; national policy changed to a stance of presupposing war with the United States.

6 August: US clarifies regulation on aviation gasoline export licenses.

22 September: Japan pressures Vichy government into agreeing to Japanese operations in northern Indochina.

27 September: United States placed an embargo on export of scrap iron to all nations outside the Western Hemisphere, including Japan. Japan-Germany-Italy Tripartite Alliance Pact signed.

16 October: Embargo on export of iron and steel scrap goes into effect.

12 November: Royal Dutch Shell and Standard Vacuum sign contracts with Japanese government for POL deliveries in the first six months of 1941 that were one-third the Japanese demand. Critically, the contracts require deliveries by Shell and Stanvac tankers (a minor part of the total) be paid in yen, while deliveries by Japanese tankers (the major part of the total) be paid in dollars.

10 December: Copper, brass, zinc, bronze, nickel, and potash added to embargo.

1941

13 January: Initiation of part of naval war preparations plans (emergency war preparations).

6 March: US Secretary of State Hull initiated a request to the Maritime Commission that pressure be put on American companies operating foreign-flag tankers to withdraw them from the Japanese trade. Due to the language of the 12 November contract, the withdrawal of American tankers means virtually all of the Japanese oil deliveries for the first six months of 1941 were dependent on payment in dollars.

6 March: Without a public announcement, the US State Department Division of Export Controls suspends action on approving gasoline export licenses.

11 March: Extension of US Lend-Lease Act to include China.

27 March: Passage of the Pacific Bases Reinforcement Bill (1.5 billion dollars) through the U.S. House of Representatives.

25 June: Imperial General Headquarters and Government Liaison Conference, the government enacts policy directly in line with the views of the Army and Navy General Headquarters that southern French Indochina needed to be secured in order to acquire rubber and tin.

2 July: Outline of the Empire's “National Policy to meet the Changing Situation” authorizing occupation of southern French Indochina ratified at Imperial Conference. The US knows of the decision almost immediately via MAGIC decrypts of Japanese embassy cables.

23 July: Notification by the United States to the effect that grounds for negotiation would be destroyed by the Japanese forces' occupation of southern French Indo-China.

 

Also on 25 July, the US froze Japanese assets in the US. That action was followed by:

 

26 July: Japanese assets frozen by Britain.

27 July: Japanese assets in Dutch East Indies frozen and Japanese imports and exports limited by Dutch government.

29 July: Announcement by Japan's Imperial General Headquarters to the effect that Army and Navy forces will be dispatched to southern French Indo-China in conformity with the French-Japanese Joint Defense Agreement.

1 August: US revokes export licenses on all POL exports. Cryptically, the Division of Export Control stated applications could be resubmitted, but would not be approved if they exceeded "prewar quantities" or involved "fuels and oils suitable for use in aircraft and . . . certain raw stocks from which such products are derived."

6 September: Outline for the execution of the Empire's State Policy decided at Imperial Conference.

10-13 September: Combined Fleet regular table maneuver and special table maneuver (including study of Hawaii Area Operations) at the Naval War College.

24 September: “In connection with the turning point of political and military strategy, the following was proposed to the Government by Imperial General Headquarters in regard to the diplomatic negotiation then under way: 1. A deadline date of 15 October be set for diplomatic negotiations. 2. The latest possible date for the commencement of Southern Operations be mid-November. 3. Preparations be made to begin operations in early November.”

28 September: Japanese occupation of southern (Cochin) Indochina.

8 October: Embargo on gasoline shipments to Japan by the US, Britain, and Holland.

20 October: Unofficial adoption of a basic naval operations plan (including attack of Pearl Harbor) to prepare for the possible outbreak of war.

21-30 October: Daily Liaison Council between the Imperial General Headquarters and the Government. "Outline for the Execution of the Empire's State Policy" reached on 6 September at the Imperial Conference rescinded. A new study on war with US, Britain, and Holland was commenced.

1 November: Formulation of draft plan "Outline for the Execution of the Empire's National Policy" at Liaison Council meeting between the Imperial General Headquarters and the Government.

3 November: Yamamoto, Commander in Chief of the Combined Fleet, called in by the Chief of Naval General Staff and informed of operations plan.

4 November: Adoption of "Outline for the execution of the Empire's National Policy" at a Cabinet Conference.

5 November: Adoption of the "Outline for the Execution of the Empire's National Policy" at Imperial Conference. Issuance of Imperial General Headquarters "Navy Order No 1. Order to complete preparations for operations by early December and instruction on operations plane and policies."

6 November: Meeting of the Commander in Chief of the Combined Fleet and his staff and all Naval and Guard District Commanders to receive instructions on operations plan formulated by the Imperial General Headquarters.

8-10 November: Agreement on operational plan by Commanders in Chief Combined Fleet, Second, Fleet, and Commander in Chief of Southern Army Terauchi (at the Army War College in Tokyo).

13 November: Operational conferences at Iwakuni between the individual fleets of the Combined Fleet.

14 November: Operational agreements at Iwakuni between the various Armies and Fleets.

15 November: Explanation of the operations plan (in the form of war games) by Army and Navy Chiefs of Staff in the presence of the Emperor at the Imperial General Headquarters in the Palace.

16 November: Completion of operational agreements between Army and Navy (Iwakuni).

17 November: The Carrier Striking Task Force left Saeki Bay at 1700 hours for Hitokappu Bay.

21 November: Issuance of Imperial General Headquarters Navy Order. Advance of necessary forces to operational waters. Permission to use force in self-defense when challenged.

26 November: The Carrier Striking Task Force sortied from Hitokappu Bay toward the point of deployment northwest of Hawaii.

29 November: Liaison Council between the Imperial General Headquarters and the Government. (Regarding declaration of war against the United States, Britain, and Holland. Basic plan established.)

30 November: Report of completion of naval war preparations made to the Emperor by Navy Minister and the Chief of Naval General Staff.

1 December: Decision on "Declaration of war against the United States, Britain, and Holland" at the Imperial Conference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, that's right. The US was positioning itself to make a quick response once its deplomatic and economic actions triggered a reaction. They didn't think that PH itself would be hit though but they expected a reaction to be hit in the western Pacific, and then the fleet of 8 battleships and 3 carriers can promptly sail out and save the Philippines. The oil was in Indonesia. Where would the bulk of the attack go?

 

When you want to see isolationists and conservatives become interventionists and supportive of the US being the world's police, talk about PH.

 

When you want to see highly sophisticated thinking people talk like 3rd graders, talk about PH.

 

Reason why PH2001 and the new Midway movies are stupid as well.

 

The US could have just stayed out and would have been just fine. I dare say Asia would likely have been better off. But they get worked up about Jap this and Jap that, thrusted into that reality by the FDR administration's foreign policy regarding Japan.

 

Y'all go hang up Mao portraits in you rooms.

Edited by JasonJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

 

 

Less taking a break on my part than a recognition that my being right seems to piss people off, and Ive already run through my quota for this month.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

 

 

Less taking a break on my part than a recognition that my being right seems to piss people off, and Ive already run through my quota for this month.

 

You ran through this month's quota the first week :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Japanese military was hoping for the kind of peace Germany got in 1919 only better. The Allies were not interested in a twenty year armistice as that peace was presciently described by Foch.

 

They could have got terms as good from 1942 on - as soon as it was obvious that they could not win. Japan had no one but its government and its military masters to blame for the war and its consequences.

 

The Japanese probably did not anticipate the US was going to take such an uncompromising position on negotiations. Why they might have had this impression is that Japan had a long history as an Asian power as being treated with respect, as an equal, in the Great Power club. Once the Japanese lost Saipan and Tojo fell, this should have been taken as the signal that the Japanese were ready to admit they'd lost the war, and start talks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few remarks:

 

World War 1 ended de facto with the unconditional surrender of Germany. Neither the terms of the armistice agreement, nor the so called peace treaty were up for negotiation. At Versailles the Entente declined to so much as speak to the German delegation. A complete occupation wasn't necessary as the Germans did what the winners demanded.

 

Japan started the war. First with China, than with everybody else. The committed war crimes everywhere and even used chemical and biological WMD. Nevertheless they were given milder terms than the Third Reich. Which they promptly rejected. See: Potsdam Declaration. As far as an alternative history occupation of California by Japan is concerned, the only place the Japanese behaved themselves was Formosa. So I wouldn’t hold my breath.

 

The United States was not an "Entente" Power. It was an associated power. That's why when Russia surrendered and the US came in, they became the "Allies".

 

The French occupied the Ruhr in 1923 precisely because the failure to occupy Germany after the war had placed Berlin in a position where it could defy the Versailles settlement. So, far from the occupation of Germany being "unnecessary", the failure to occupy Germany in 1919 was fundamental to creating the conditions for WW2.

 

The Potsdam Declaration was made on July 26th, 1945. The first atomic bomb was dropped on August 6th. This was an insufficient amount of time to allow the Potsdam initiative to have developed - why not issue this after the fall of Saipan in 1944?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

 

 

Less taking a break on my part than a recognition that my being right seems to piss people off, and Ive already run through my quota for this month.

 

You ran through this month's quota the first week :P

 

 

Well you know, its been a busy three days. :)

 

Its fashionable on tank-net these days to dislike people because you dislike their opinion. Ive disagreed with Jason pretty much on every point on this thread, but he is a nice guy. Why rub it in?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

 

 

Less taking a break on my part than a recognition that my being right seems to piss people off, and Ive already run through my quota for this month.

 

You ran through this month's quota the first week :P

 

 

Well you know, its been a busy three days. :)

 

Its fashionable on tank-net these days to dislike people because you dislike their opinion. Ive disagreed with Jason pretty much on every point on this thread, but he is a nice guy. Why rub it in?

 

 

Yeah, 10 vs 1.

 

I know how Roman feels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Dude! You didn't leave! I can stop bating my breath. Awesome.

 

Have a most riki-tik day!

Common troll behavior makes last word posts even though other person's taking are break or leaving or whatever :)

 

So it is standard that a couple of more post will be necessary even after saying "I'm taking a break" because sure enough, a troll wants to take advantage of inserting a last post :)

 

Can I take a break now?

 

 

Less taking a break on my part than a recognition that my being right seems to piss people off, and Ive already run through my quota for this month.

 

 

Actually, I've agreed with a lot you've posted this month....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But it does generally imply that the majority of my points were incorrect.

 

I thought they were incorrect. Contrary to what many others thing, I can explore the possiblity that im wrong.

 

 

Sorry, I could be a little too edgy with this topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...