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Sofilein Thread Of....tankess....


rmgill

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I've often wondered if it would pay to offer adventure holidays with tanks. You know, spend a weekend in manoeuvres, trackbashing, gunnery drill, shittng in the woods, that kind of thing. I suppose the cost of diesel, and having a manoeuvre space large enough that nobody would object to tank tracks across it.

Maybe if the Army did it for people to see what it was like, they would get more recruits.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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1 hour ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

Tanking is hard, hard work.  Each mile means more maintenance and you have to be a little baked to do it.

Yes, then yes and no.  I looked at the maintinance as the price to take the tank to the range.  I'd still do it if they'd let me.

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3 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

If I could pick a topic that I'd like to see covered in these videos that barely relates to gaming it'd be visibility issues.  From scopes to sights WW2 tanks were a challenge to operate.  Periscopes and interphones are a full time job even when no one is shooting back.

The days when it was possible are past but the battlefield visibility with WW2 optics would be a fascinating video.

With regards to getting into a place and being treated specially that really isn't too difficult.  I've gotten to do all that stuff over a 20 year period before I hung it up and it was cool but anybody who isn't doing it isn't missing out on anything really.

With regard to the WW2 stuff, once you've driven one or two all the rest are the same.  Some are a bit quicker or slower but the mechanical functions just don't differ enough.  The only tank that I really wanted to crew on and never bot the chance was an M3 Medium and truth is that it operated just like a Sherman so it isn't like there would have been a big difference.

On the games themselves computer technology has come a long way.  You could very nearly learn to operate a tank just by playing a tank simulator game.  Some people have trained to fly that way.  If the Army really wants more tankers at the recruiting station the games may help a tiny bit but making the Army act like an army would go a lot further.  It's hard to get people to sign their life away without a certain amount of espirit de corps.  Tanking is hard, hard work.  Each mile means more maintenance and you have to be a little baked to do it.

How would you describe the physical demand of the maintenance tasks? What’s the physical toll? Is it worth maintenance wise to go to 3 man tanks?

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Well, here's my interview with her.

Observations.

I don't think that I have a better 'argument' for gaining access to musea than she does. Any museum putting out its message is going to put it out on a channel which treats the relationship with respect and takes the museum's job seriously. What is the benefit to Fort Benning specifically to work with her (or me)? If the missions are to preserve and teach the branch's history then does that not fit the mission to do so on a channel with an audience? That can be for its own sake, or for the sake of recruiting, or even convincing Congress that the money spent on the museum is worth it.

As to her personal success, firstly, she's a downright nice and non-presumptive lass. Secondly, unlike a lot of youtubers in the space, she is very open about the fact that she knows what she does not know. If you look at most of her videos from musea, and compare to mine, the difference is that in my videos, I do my research, and put out my conclusions. She, however, works on the basis of eliciting information from other people who know what they are talking about, so this BMP video, the Bradley video, the Hunnicutt Archives video, Panzers with Doyle, videos with me at Shrivenham, whatever, it's not her giving the information. However, she is an honest enthusiast which means she can perform the role of the enthusiast viewer, asking relevant questions, moving the discussion along, and keeping it interesting.

Does she do a job nobody else can do? No, absolutely not. But she's doing it, she's doing it reasonably well, and many other people aren't. Absolutely, it helped that she got initial exposure through World of Tanks to get the critical mass to become somewhat successful on an independent basis, which I can say is exactly the same as my situation. That's basically just taking an opportunity which presented itself and making the most of it.

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Just now, DB said:

But Manic, she can't be allowed to be successful, she's got THE WRONG CHROMOSOME!!!!!11111!!!!

Or something, whatever.

Her being female was not the issue. I brought up the fact her reputation & connection was as a video gamer. 
But if you prefer putting your own spin on it, knock yourself out.

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1 minute ago, bigfngun said:

Her being female was not the issue. I brought up the fact her reputation & connection was as a video gamer. 
But if you prefer putting your own spin on it, knock yourself out.

I call bullshit. You're all making excuses for a plain mixture of jealousy and misogynism. Give it a fucking rest, there's enough space in the FFZ for socially unacceptable behaviour.

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50 minutes ago, bigfngun said:

I brought up the fact her reputation & connection was as a video gamer. 

So what, I'm a gamer too - among other things. Not everybody has had the privilege to work in and with tanks professionally. But should all non-tankers be excluded from any activity related to tanks?

Then why have a place like TankNet?

Only lawyers should make it a habit to ask only those questions to which they already know the answers. For everybody else it's the path to actually learn a thing or two.

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2 hours ago, DB said:

I call bullshit. You're all making excuses for a plain mixture of jealousy and misogynism. Give it a fucking rest, there's enough space in the FFZ for socially unacceptable behaviour.

First off, you’re not talking to your girlfriend so watch your mouth. You want it to got to FFZ, fine. 

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1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

So what, I'm a gamer too - among other things. Not everybody has had the privilege to work in and with tanks professionally. But should all non-tankers be excluded from any activity related to tanks?

Then why have a place like TankNet?

Only lawyers should make it a habit to ask only those questions to which they already know the answers. For everybody else it's the path to actually learn a thing or two.

That’s stretching things. Discussing things in this case Tanks on an Internet forum is one thing. Direct access to in service installations & to in service vehicles because of gaming is another.  

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The main job of a museum is education. She has a following of several hundred thousand viewed and is a lot better on the eyes than Maniac even without the Bikini. Not a challenge Maniac. Why would a museum want to restrict her access and not help her? She may work for a video game and not be a veteran but she is entertaining and educating and may encourage some to join as tankers. it's a win win for the museum and a excuse for the staff to have fun on a tank. 

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On 3/24/2022 at 1:46 AM, Wobbly Head said:

 I don't think maniac has the legs for a Bikini.

Oh my god! My bikini is on fire! I think I would pass on that video......

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The education part of the Museum system is important.

Further, the OPSEC thing on tanks that have made it to the Museum system really isn't an issue.  Even talking about OPSEC for current issue stuff doesn't seem important to me after we donated an army's worth of current gear to the Taliban.  If OPSEC isn't important to the military why should I worry about it?

Answering the question from above about three man crews:

In my opinion that's just nuts.  You'd have to have one serious traveling maintenance circus to make that work and the machinery would always have to be pretty new.  Older stuff breaks more.  In a four man crew the workload is split 4 ways with the TC often doing stuff that pulls him away from the tank (briefings and whatnot).  The three man crew isn't enough to cover basic duties in a combat environment.

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There is no manpower savings in 3 man crews, the size of the support echelon has to grow to accommodate the lack of crews to do maintenance, sentry duties, etc. The savings would be in the potential loss of the tank as only 3 crew are exposed to being killed or injured.

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4 hours ago, bigfngun said:

That’s stretching things. Discussing things in this case Tanks on an Internet forum is one thing. Direct access to in service installations & to in service vehicles because of gaming is another.  

I don't see the exact nature of the objection here. 

Are you saying that pedigree is more important than product and capability, or is your position more generic that military musea shouldn't be giving non museum folks with a camera and youtube channel access under any circumstances? 

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On 3/25/2022 at 1:25 PM, bigfngun said:

Wreaks of desperation. I should have kept up with playing Chopper Command. I’d get free rides in Apaches. Your explanation is valid but unless it comes in Milk of Magnesia form, this still doesn’t make it any easier to digest. 
If this is what the Army needs to drum up PR for armor, yeesh.

 

PS I highly doubt she’s attracting an under 25 crowd. AFV fandom is well, um, a select crowd😁

I can only speak for American Heritage Museum and discussions with staff at Bovington, Saumr, and Muenster.  AT AHM we get 250-350 people in a day and at least a third of them are late teen to low-20's.  Almost all of the time that I talk to them they got their interest through WoT and they usually know and watch her.  They also all know Chieftain and less often Challenger.  Talking with staff at those other three museums they all have seen their visit numbers explode and demographics change way younger because of WoT.  Before WoT I went to Bovington and Saumur on weekends.  Bovington had less than a hundred and Saumur had less than 20 all day.  Prior to Covid they were getting hundreds and with a much younger skew.  Who also, BTW, buy a crap ton more merchandise.  

I have also heard anecdotally that many of the new crewman who go through the "museum" at Benning mention getting interested in armor because of WoT and they also know Sofilein.  I think you really underestimate how good the PR for tank museums and perhaps even actual tank crews have been positively influenced by her and WoT.  You might also consider that people at museums tend to be proud of them and want to show them off.  Hundred thousand eyeballs on the thing you want to show off with pride is a pretty good reason its own to bring her in and let her geek out on camera.  I would also add that both from meeting her and hearing from others she treats the museum staff extremely well, is very supportive and friendly, and is just a really pleasant guest.  Why wouldn't they roll out a bit of a red carpet for her?

Edited by nitflegal
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2 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

Sent it twice

Worth saying twice. I'm not a gamer, but I have to give it to WoT, there aren't many organizations out there spending money to make high quality tank videos like they do.  As far as I'm concerned, the main qualification their presenters need is to be good presenters.  That doesn't just mean people who are subject matter experts ans scholars, it also can mean people who look and sound good who ask good questions.

If some here think they can do better, then they can send a resume to WoT or contact the museums, hire a production crew, and see how many views they get.

 

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On 3/25/2022 at 3:40 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

I've often wondered if it would pay to offer adventure holidays with tanks. You know, spend a weekend in manoeuvres, trackbashing, gunnery drill, shittng in the woods, that kind of thing. I suppose the cost of diesel, and having a manoeuvre space large enough that nobody would object to tank tracks across it.

Maybe if the Army did it for people to see what it was like, they would get more recruits.

British Army used to do something like that, it was called "Executive Stretch." You know the way some companies run team-building events at health spas and the like?

Here's a bunch of accountants making a forced entry into an enemy-held house.
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P1020753.thumb.JPG.e56d8ca5b25809e5ac90f11e6a3f2d6b.JPG

Basically teams of about 5-7 folks would all gather for a weekend of fun and frolics with all the pyro they could throw and blanks they could shoot. I showed up a little late on a Friday evening, they were already getting their lesson in the care and feeding of the L85A1.

Events included joyrides in a Warrior, various challenge stations like "Here's a 105mm Light Gun in firing condition. Here's the manual. Configure it for airlift", a hike, and a few other things.
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What was particularly interesting about it was that they were all from the employers of reservists, so by the end of the weekend, they had a good understanding of why their reservist employees might be a little wrecked on Monday morning after training. (They were also present for a medal parade from some who had returned from Iraq).

I thought it was a bloody brilliant idea. There's also absolutely no way on God's green earth that anyone in the US Army would let something like that happen.

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11 hours ago, Colin said:

There is no manpower savings in 3 man crews, the size of the support echelon has to grow to accommodate the lack of crews to do maintenance, sentry duties, etc. The savings would be in the potential loss of the tank as only 3 crew are exposed to being killed or injured.

Came to my mind that having 3-man crew and autoloader actually complicates maintenance things even more than just missing crewmember. Autoloader is extra complex machinery that also needs maintenance. 

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4 hours ago, Manic Moran said:

British Army used to do something like that, it was called "Executive Stretch." You know the way some companies run team-building events at health spas and the like?

Here's a bunch of accountants making a forced entry into an enemy-held house.
P1020713.thumb.JPG.0785771c2c3eeb93d8166675108203ab.JPG

P1020716.thumb.JPG.15a65ae0f3c0c886659bcf537372acb5.JPG

P1020753.thumb.JPG.e56d8ca5b25809e5ac90f11e6a3f2d6b.JPG

Basically teams of about 5-7 folks would all gather for a weekend of fun and frolics with all the pyro they could throw and blanks they could shoot. I showed up a little late on a Friday evening, they were already getting their lesson in the care and feeding of the L85A1.

Events included joyrides in a Warrior, various challenge stations like "Here's a 105mm Light Gun in firing condition. Here's the manual. Configure it for airlift", a hike, and a few other things.
P1020719.thumb.JPG.79b2503be28bf221b451be5309bce8d0.JPG

What was particularly interesting about it was that they were all from the employers of reservists, so by the end of the weekend, they had a good understanding of why their reservist employees might be a little wrecked on Monday morning after training. (They were also present for a medal parade from some who had returned from Iraq).

I thought it was a bloody brilliant idea. There's also absolutely no way on God's green earth that anyone in the US Army would let something like that happen.

Thats very forward thinking of the British Army. Do they still do it?

Accountant Rifles has a nice ring to it...

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Given what has been said above then perhaps the real question is why does the US Army restrict access to the tank collection in the first place? I understand from Manics comment that the Army isn't known for thinking outside the box when it comes to PR but a "government owned" tank museum is hardly a novel thing. I presume it would be possible to handle any security/secrecy issues with giving the public access to that particular part of the base where the collection is.

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3 hours ago, wendist said:

Given what has been said above then perhaps the real question is why does the US Army restrict access to the tank collection in the first place? I understand from Manics comment that the Army isn't known for thinking outside the box when it comes to PR but a "government owned" tank museum is hardly a novel thing. I presume it would be possible to handle any security/secrecy issues with giving the public access to that particular part of the base where the collection is.

I've asked that question more than a few times since from a purely selfish standpoint I bloody well want to visit (I want to close the gaps in the walkaround I made of the T29 series and the T23 is a bit of a holy grail for me to document)!  The official answer I and others have gotten is that it's not a museum, it's a training facility and that's where the funding comes from.  So anything that gets in the way of that is a non-starter.  Unofficially, and it goes hand in hand with the former, is simply staffing.  Pre-Covid they had a few open-houses a year and I believe they want to start them again but you need a lot of paid staff (which isn't in there budget) or volunteers (which is a pain to get enough of them on the best day and I am one so I'm throwing myself under the bus) to keep people engaged and unhurt.  Then add the logistics of getting people around on an active base without them wandering off and doing stupid things and you've got a headache that isn't part of their official purpose and I can understand why they aren't open to the public.  

I'd add that the US Army never seems to have believed in the value of museums to their history in the way the other services do.  You see the USAF museum (to be fair, created in large part because someone important wanted a private room to play with his planes), the USMC museum (those folks LOVE presenting their history and helping those who also want to) and USN aviation and so forth and compare it to Aberdeen.  

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