Indian Air Strikes Target Militants In Pakistan (+)

[Mighty_Zuk]

Repost.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Mighty_Zuk

[Adam Peter]

This is what one gets for making business with Huawei.

[Nobu]

the replacement Tejas is still not coming in numbers?

 

It probably will never come into front-line service in numbers, but that likely was never the goal versus its indigenous technology demonstrator/Make in India aspect.

 

Accuracy in reporting is going to be difficult considering the emotional hatred of the other side so evident in both the Indian and Pakistani English-language press.

[Yama]

I thought the Mig-21 was removed from service about five years ago? Or not, because the replacement Tejas is still not coming in numbers?

Old MiG-21 versions were; Bison standard aircraft and two-seaters remain in service, though undoubtely on their way out.

 

Pakistani claim that no F-16's were involved in the operation. Rumours were that strikes were done by Mirages with JF-17's flying escort. Indian claim that 'Pakistani jet' (not necessarily F-16) was shot down seems spurious as no evidence of any kind has surfaced. Similarly, there is no evidence of supposed second Indian fighter shot down and early Pakistani report that they had two pilots in custody was erraneous.

So basically there was a skirmish between two MiG-21's and unknown number of JF-17's where one MiG was shot down. There are couple of videos of the shotdown but they are very indistinct and really nothing can be made out.

This is supposedly picture of the dogfight in progress, but no idea if its authentic.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Yama

[JasonJ]

 

I thought the Mig-21 was removed from service about five years ago? Or not, because the replacement Tejas is still not coming in numbers?

 

Old MiG-21 versions were; Bison standard aircraft and two-seaters remain in service, though undoubtely on their way out.

Pakistani claim that no F-16's were involved in the operation. Rumours were that strikes were done by Mirages with JF-17's flying escort. Indian claim that 'Pakistani jet' (not necessarily F-16) was shot down seems spurious as no evidence of any kind has surfaced. Similarly, there is no evidence of supposed second Indian fighter shot down and early Pakistani report that they had two pilots in custody was erraneous.

So basically there was a skirmish between two MiG-21's and unknown number of JF-17's where one MiG was shot down. There are couple of videos of the shotdown but they are very indistinct and really nothing can be made out.

This is supposedly picture of the dogfight in progress, but no idea if its authentic.

This pretty much sums it up as of now.

[glenn239]

Re the S-400, unless taking targeting info from an A-50 or similar, terrain masking would tend to severely limit effective range in that rather bumpy part of the world.

 

Depends on the missile used.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Indian pilot is to be release by Pakistan as a gesture, or so Ive just heard.

[GARGEAN]

 

 

Re the S-400, unless taking targeting info from an A-50 or similar, terrain masking would tend to severely limit effective range in that rather bumpy part of the world.

Depends on the missile used.

How exactly different type of missile will allow it to engage targets below radiohorizon?

[Nobu]

Indian pilot is to be release by Pakistan as a gesture, or so Ive just heard.

Surprising news, which supports the Pakistani claim of having not lost an F16 in various ways.

[glenn239]

 

 

Re the S-400, unless taking targeting info from an A-50 or similar, terrain masking would tend to severely limit effective range in that rather bumpy part of the world.

Depends on the missile used.

How exactly different type of missile will allow it to engage targets below radio horizon?

 

 

If the missile launched is semi-active radar homing then the terrain will break the lock and that's that. But, if the missile is active radar homing for terminal guidance then ducking below the radar horizon after launch will not assure it survives - the battery will use the missile radars in an attempt to complete the engagement or, if available, use the data from a datalinked 3rd party system for continued mid-course updates.

[GARGEAN]

If the missile launched is semi-active radar homing then the terrain will break the lock and that's that. But, if the missile is active radar homing for terminal guidance then ducking below the radar horizon after launch will not assure it survives - the battery will use the missile radars in an attempt to complete the engagement or, if available, use the data from a datalinked 3rd party system for continued mid-course updates.

You really don't know how those things work, right? To launch missile you need to know where target is. With target below LoS horizon you will not know where it is. To assure ARH missile lock you need to guide it towards target considering its maneuvers. With target below LoS horizon you will not be able to. So what exactly you propose?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Gargean, just dont. You will drive yourself crackers trying to drive a debate based on logic and reasoned argument.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-47397409

Abhinandan: Who is the Indian pilot captured by Pakistan?

• 28 February 2019

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• India-Pakistan air strikes

Image copyright AFP

Indian air force pilot Abhinandan Varthaman, captured by Pakistani forces on Wednesday, has become the point of focus amid tensions between the two countries.

The fighter pilot, who has 16 years of experience, is from the southern city of Chennai (formerly known as Madras).

His jet was shot down in what Islamabad called a "retaliation" to India conducting airstrikes in its territory.

His capture is being seen as a major setback for India.

The government has demanded his immediate release and Indian social media is full of tweets about him, with many calling him a hero and praying for his safe return.

Dramatic details of how he was captured in Pakistan have also begun to emerge.

"I saw the Indian flag on his parachute and knew he was Indian. I also saw his plane get hit and saw him float down," Mohammad Razzaq Chaudhry, a resident of Bhimber district in Pakistani-administered Kashmir who witnessed the moment the jet was shot down on Wednesday, told BBC's Ilyas Khan.

He added that locals rushed to the fallen pilot and that he was "afraid" that they might harm him.

Mr Chaudhry said that some of the men were angry and attacked the pilot while others tried to stop them. "I told them not to harm him - to leave him alone until the army comes."

Skip Twitter post by @emraanhashmi

Such calm and resilience in the face of adversity . Prayers for our brave pilot #AbhinandanVarthaman . Hope for his safe return. #AbhinandanMyHero

— Emraan Hashmi (@emraanhashmi) February 28, 2019

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End of Twitter post by @emraanhashmi

Skip Twitter post by @SANDIPLotus

Don't dare to keep him in custody Pakistan.

Any torture will cost you double pain.#GivebackAbhinandhan

— SANDIP *संदीप* סנדיפ (@SANDIPLotus) February 28, 2019

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End of Twitter post by @SANDIPLotus

Local media in India reported that crowds began thronging his family home soon after news of his capture spread. The Hindustan Times newspaper quoted one of his relatives as saying that they wanted the government to "secure his release" without delay.

His family has refused to comment about his capture.

The son of a decorated former fighter pilot, Wing Cdr Abhinandan was first commissioned as a fighter pilot in 2004. His mother is a doctor. He is reported to be in his mid-30s.

His father, Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman, worked with decorated Tamil film maker Mani Ratnam, acting as an adviser for his 2017 film, Kaatru Veliyidai, which was set against the backdrop of the 1999 Kargil conflict between India and Pakistan. Mr Varthaman was the air marshal at the time.

The Kargil conflict was the last time an Indian solider was captured and held by Pakistani forces. Group Captain K Nachiketa, who was also an air force pilot, was in Pakistan's custody for eight days after his jet crashed in their territory.

He is now retired and lives in the southern city of Hyderabad.

"He [Wing Cdr Abhinandan] should be treated appropriately as an officer and sent back to India," Group Captain Nachiketa told BBC Telugu. "He is brave and courageous and we are all proud of him."

He added that he did not want to talk about his capture but said that "all officers are trained for this and I am sure he will be with us shortly and join his unit again soon."

- NDTV Good Times - in 2011 is also being circulated widely.

In it, he is heard joking about how you need a "bad attitude" to be a successful fighter pilot.

He also talks about how you trust your colleagues with your life, referring to "blind faith" in your co-pilot when you're in the air.

• India and Pakistan in 'uncharted waters'
• Air strikes a 'major escalation'
• India demands Pakistan release pilot

India had initially said that all of its pilots were accounted for, contradicting Pakistani claims that they had captured a pilot.

However Pakistan's information ministry then released - and later deleted - a video showing the pilot blindfolded and with blood on his face. This prompted a furious Delhi to summon Islamabad's deputy high commissioner and condemn what it called the "vulgar display of an injured personnel".

In later footage, Wing Commander Abhinandan could be seen sipping tea from a cup without a blindfold. He appeared to have been cleaned up.

He said his name, military position and that he was from "down south", but refused to share any details when asked about his mission: "I'm not supposed to tell you that."

Pakistan's military spokesman Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor said the pilot was being "treated as per norms of military ethics".

Many of India's politicians expressed concern and solidarity with the pilot. A joint opposition statement accused the government of "blatant politicisation of the armed forces' sacrifices".

Skip Twitter post by @RahulGandhi

I’m sorry to hear that one of our brave IAF pilots is missing. I hope he will return home soon, unharmed. We stand by our armed forces in these difficult times.

— Rahul Gandhi (@RahulGandhi) February 27, 2019

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End of Twitter post by @RahulGandhi

Skip Twitter post by @Priyanuj_Sarmah

Indian forces have people like #Abhinandan who have always put the interests of country ahead of them. He is a true hero and we hope he will return back soon. India will be waiting for her hero to come back.#AbhinandanMyHero

— Priyanuj_Sarmah (@Priyanuj_Sarmah) February 27, 2019

 

Listening to the Indian Prime Minister Modi, there seems to be a distinct nationalist tone in many of the comments. The Pakistani's if anything seem conciliatory.

[glenn239]

 

You really don't know how those things work, right? To launch missile you need to know where target is. With target below LoS horizon you will not know where it is. To assure ARH missile lock you need to guide it towards target considering its maneuvers. With target below LoS horizon you will not be able to. So what exactly you propose?

 

 

When I said 'ducking below the radar horizon' it means that the target aircraft is within the LOS of the radar at the point of the SAM firing, but then dives for the deck and gets below the radar horizon before the missiles reach the target. If the aircraft is below the radar horizon at all times, then obviously the SAM unit would need to use a datalinked 3rd party system with direct LOS to initiate the engagement as well.

Edited February 28, 2019 by glenn239

[GARGEAN]

If the aircraft is below the radar horizon at all times, then obviously the SAM unit would need to use a datalinked 3rd party system with direct LOS to initiate the engagement.

 

And that was exactly my point as to why Su-30MKI+A-50 will work better in that area than S-400.

[glenn239]

 

If the aircraft is below the radar horizon at all times, then obviously the SAM unit would need to use a datalinked 3rd party system with direct LOS to initiate the engagement.

 

And that was exactly my point as to why Su-30MKI+A-50 will work better in that area than S-400.

 

 

Good to know - I took your point to be that you did not fully understand what "ducking down below the radar horizon" actually meant.

 

You're suggesting now that the combination of SU-30/A-50 would be better in the mountains that S-400 on its own. My question to that is, where did you get the idea that S-400 can't use SU-30's and A-50's as 3rd party sensory platforms in its engagement cycle?

Edited February 28, 2019 by glenn239

[GARGEAN]

I am not saying that it can't. I am saying that it doesn't make a lot of sense if 30MKI is already present.

[Mighty_Zuk]

True. Ground based air defense are really just complementary measures when it comes to repelling an aerial invasion/attack. A proper air defense strategy would prioritize a strong air force for that purpose.

It's why you'll hear so often hear about manufacturers boasting about anti-ballistic capabilities all the way down to C-RAM, or anti-cruise missile capabilities, but not so much against fixed wing aircraft.

[glenn239]

The two are best together. In the case of the Isrealis, Iron Dome and the IAF are complimentary. The Syrian Air Force sure as hell doesn't think anything like that Iron Dome can't shoot airplanes down that approach the border in a threatening manner!

[Mighty_Zuk]

The two are best together. In the case of the Isrealis, Iron Dome and the IAF are complimentary. The Syrian Air Force sure as hell doesn't think anything like that Iron Dome can't shoot airplanes down that approach the border in a threatening manner!

The Syrians are investing more in ground based air defenses because reviving the air force is a much more time consuming and resource consuming effort by a huge margin. They just cant afford that. And the results speak for themselves - every time they try to use their air defenses they lose a couple batteries.

 

Iron Dome, by the way, does have a proven capability against fixed wing aircraft. It was discovered in a test at an early stage of its development.

[Special-K]

I wonder how all of this is going to affect the acquisition of military hardware for both sides going forward. Will they reevaluate their priorities? Will India get serious and actually start procuring Hardware instead of just conducting evaluation after evaluation after competition after competition? And will systems from different countries be given preference based on who they supported?

 

 

-K

[Chris Werb]

I don't think y8u can really compare Syria or Israel to Kashmir as our defence challenges.

[RETAC21]

I wonder how all of this is going to affect the acquisition of military hardware for both sides going forward. Will they reevaluate their priorities? Will India get serious and actually start procuring Hardware instead of just conducting evaluation after evaluation after competition after competition? And will systems from different countries be given preference based on who they supported?

 

 

-K

 

It won't affect them at all. Kashmir has been going on since independence but both sides are prepared to re-run 1965.

[Stuart Galbraith]

With atomic weapons if necessary. Which would make any further defence expenditure somewhat moot.

[glenn239]

Mighty Zuk The Syrians are investing more in ground based air defenses because reviving the air force is a much more time consuming and resource consuming effort by a huge margin. They just cant afford that. And the results speak for themselves - every time they try to use their air defenses they lose a couple batteries.

 

SU-30/R-77 going up against F-16/AMRAAM is at best about a 1:1 ratio of losses for the IAF. That's pretty expensive. A modern SAM system can dominate the entire battle space without risking fancy 75 million dollar jets and their pilots. Then, the SU-30's can pound the shit out of the terrorist bases in Pakistani territory. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

In terms of the IAF and Syria, the IAF uses stand off missiles to keep out of range of the defending batteries. I don't know why they even bother with the fancy jets - they could launch such missiles with C-130 Hercules for all the risk a plane is in 100 miles outside SAM range.

 

 

Iron Dome, by the way, does have a proven capability against fixed wing aircraft. It was discovered in a test at an early stage of its development.

 

 

Ah, I see. You're saying that when the Russians state S-350 can engage 16 aerial targets simultaneously, they mean birds, Boeing airliners, UFO's, missiles, but they don't mean fast jets. This is what you are saying, correct? That the S-400 cannot shoot down Pakistani F-16's, but that the Israelis - developing a comparatively more primitive system - can?

Edited March 1, 2019 by glenn239

[GARGEAN]

Iron Dome, by the way, does have a proven capability against fixed wing aircraft. It was discovered in a test at an early stage of its development.

You're telling that like it's something strange and unexpectable. If system is able to engage Grad rockets at alt, it will able to engage jets. It may be ineffective at that, but it CAN'T be unable to.