Indian Air Strikes Target Militants In Pakistan (+)

[Yama]

My interpretation of the events so far is that Pakistani sent a small strike package to drop bombs near Indian military targets (it was claimed as 'demonstration strike' by them - or just an excuse for not hitting anything). Somewhere it was claimed they used Mirages, which seems believable. Indian interceptors (locally based MiG-21 squadron) chased them back to Pakistani airspace, there they ran either into Paki interceptors which were waiting for them, or SAM trap. One was shot down. Indian ground forces saw something crashing in the Paki side and assumed it's "a Pakistani F-16". So there probably was not a huge big air battle involving MiG-29's and F-16's and Su-30MKI's or whatnot, as some wild rumours claim but rather small action involving handful of aircraft.

 

There was also Mi-17 crash in Indian side, but it might be unrelated to the incident.

 

I do note that photoes of the alleged wreckage of the Indian plane do not show remains of any missiles. They were maybe expended before the crash, or quickly secured away.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Yama

[Roman Alymov]

https://fighterjetsworld.com/latest-news/indian-mea-spokesperson-raveesh-kumar-confirm-paf-have-shotdown-iaf-mig-21-fighter-jet-and-captured-pilots/10916/?fbclid=IwAR2PyCFSS1oC8Pw8iKHLL2uwA3DpjYpS_RWOsVsYTBjugD8XO0lzxY0LSxc

Indian MEA Spokesperson Raveesh Kumar confirm PAF have shotdown IAF MIG-21 fighter jet and captured pilots

[Roman Alymov]

Indian plane wreck

[Roman Alymov]

 

I do note that photoes of the alleged wreckage of the Indian plane do not show remains of any missiles. They were maybe expended before the crash, or quickly secured away.

Missile?

[Rod]

Is it a violation of Geneva Convention for Pakistan to deliberate parade the captured Pakistani pilot? On the other hand it is best to be shown alive before TVs given previous history of Indian pilots being executed.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Reports on BBC of an Indian Helicopter shot down with 6 people on board, which would appear to be the one refered to earlier. Also footage of what is clearly one Indian Mig21 shot down.

 

 

Is it a violation of Geneva Convention for Pakistan to deliberate parade the captured Pakistani pilot? On the other hand it is best to be shown alive before TVs given previous history of Indian pilots being executed.

 

I dont think so, the Germans were doing it all the time in the last war. I think they were probably doing him a favour actually, it makes him a negotiating point.

[bojan]

It actually is, but it has been ignored since WW1.

[glenn239]

India might wish to accelerate the purchase of the S-400 system, perhaps evening buying an operational Russian system to close the time gap.

 

One question is, why was India tooling around with MIG-21's in an air to air situation, instead of using their SU-30's?

[bojan]

Their 21s are quite upgraded with new radars, R-77 and R-73 missiles.

Also, since Mig-21 still beats most modern fighters in the time required for takeoff and climb to altitude they are might be popular for a "duty pair".

[Josh]

They have a lot of reliability issues with the 21's at this point, right? I think they have a rather horrible peace time attrition rate. I'm surprised it would be in front line service, but then again its time to altitude, WVR maneuverability, and expendability make it a good fit for a front line scramble fighter vice more expensive multitask airframes you'd want father back.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Josh

[Stuart Galbraith]

It actually is, but it has been ignored since WW1.

 

Ok, fair enough then. Im pretty sure we broke it as well then during the Battle of Britain.

 

There is a good photo of a flat pack Mig21 here.

https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBU8AQX?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

Edited February 27, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[glenn239]

Their 21s are quite upgraded with new radars, R-77 and R-73 missiles.

Also, since Mig-21 still beats most modern fighters in the time required for takeoff and climb to altitude they are might be popular for a "duty pair".

 

Can't be better than an SU-30 in air to air or air to ground though.

[Stuart Galbraith]

In time to altitude, I can quite believe it. Its like the F104, a missile with a man in it.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Their 21s are quite upgraded with new radars, R-77 and R-73 missiles.

Also, since Mig-21 still beats most modern fighters in the time required for takeoff and climb to altitude they are might be popular for a "duty pair".

 

Can't be better than an SU-30 in air to air or air to ground though.

 

Taking into account how simple, maintenance-low and reliable Mig-21 is compared to modern fighters, it is quite possible it was kept in constant readiness while modern fighters were not ready. Also it is small (so no big shelters required for it)

[Nobu]

There was little chance of Pakistan not retaliating, and quickly, as their not doing so would have sent a message of its own to India and Indians in various ways.

 

I suspect the Pakistani Air Force created a situation in which it was hoping Indian MIGs of any type would cross the border in a particular sector, as the optics of Indian Air Force wreckage on Pakistani territory do not favor India.

 

Artillery is probably dueling across the LOC as we speak.

[Roman Alymov]

(Please ignore Tiger tanks)

[Roman Alymov]

[R011]

 

It actually is, but it has been ignored since WW1.

 

Ok, fair enough then. Im pretty sure we broke it as well then during the Battle of Britain.

 

There is a good photo of a flat pack Mig21 here.

https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBU8AQX?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

 

 

Currently, the only people who care about this minor infraction of the rules are Westerners as the Western press won't distinguish between a photo op and outright murder when it comes to Western militaries.

[R011]

(Please ignore Tiger tanks)

 

I'm amused that the icon for tank is a Tiger I - something that some of their grandfathers of both sides might have engaged in Italy - and shouldn't the PAF fighter number have been adjusted too?

 

 

Edit: I missed that line of text above the chart.

Edited February 27, 2019 by R011

[glenn239]

I see reports that the Pakistani jet lost was an F-16, shot down by MIG-21. If so Bojan has a good point about this not being your granddaddy's MIG-21...

[GARGEAN]

India might wish to accelerate the purchase of the S-400 system, perhaps evening buying an operational Russian system to close the time gap.

 

Hardly. S-400 won't be a really valuable asset in current situation, where Su-30MKI is present, aside from situation awareness provided by meaty radar it have. But for that Indians already have A-50. OTOH if shit REALLY hits the fan ABM capability of S-400 might become handy.

[Panzermann]

I see reports that the Pakistani jet lost was an F-16, shot down by MIG-21. If so Bojan has a good point about this not being your granddaddy's MIG-21...

I thought the Mig-21 was removed from service about five years ago? Or not, because the replacement Tejas is still not coming in numbers?

 

---

 

IAF pilot captured by Pak after air combat; Pak F16 shot down

 

New Delhi, February 27

An IAF pilot was captured by Pakistan after an air combat on Wednesday during which the two sides said they shot down each other’s warplanes that followed an unsuccessful attempt to target Indian military installations in retaliatory strikes that sparked fears of war.

The aerial engagement between India and Pakistan for the first time since the 1971 war marked a dramatic escalation of confrontation prompting world leaders to urge the two neighbouring countries to exercise “utmost restraint”.

India said it shot down a F-16 warplane of Pakistan while it lost a MiG 21 during the fierce engagement between the air forces of the two countries along the Line of Control (LoC).

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) summoned the acting high commissioner of Pakistan Syed Haider Shah and demanded immediate and safe return of the pilot identified as Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman.

It was also made clear to Pakistan that no harm should be caused to the Indian defence personnel, the ministry said, adding it has conveyed strong objection to the neighbouring country at the “vulgar display” of an injured personnel in violation of all norms of International Humanitarian Law and the Geneva Convention.

In a strongly-worded statement, the MEA said the envoy was clearly told that India reserves the right to take “firm and decisive action to protect its national security”.

Pakistan detained the pilot following the aerial engagement in which a Pakistani jet, stated to be a F-16, was downed by Indian air defence forces in Jammu region’s Rajouri sector. The IAF also lost a MiG 21 jet in the engagement, an Indian official said. Pakistan has denied losing a jet.

The Pakistan Army retracted its earlier statement that two IAF pilots were arrested and in the evening said it had “only one” pilot in its custody.

“There is only one pilot under Pakistan Army’s custody. Wing Comd Abhi Nandan is being treated as per norms of military ethics,” Pakistani military spokesperson Major General Asif Ghafoor said in the evening.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi was given an update on the latest security situation by the chiefs of the three armed forces following violation of Indian airspace by Pakistani fighter jets in Jammu and Kashmir and the capture of the Indian pilot across the LoC, sources said.

National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, senior officials of the Indian Navy, Army and the Air Force and other security officials also had a meeting to discuss the current security situation, they said.

A day after India bombed Jaish-e-Mohammed’s (JeM) biggest training camp in Pakistan, it was a day of hectic developments moving with dizzying rapidity.

Three Pakistani fighter jets entered Indian air space at 9.58 am to target key military installations in Rajouri and Naushera in Jammu and Kashmir, as part of the retaliatory strike, official sources said.

Though three Pakistani jets violated Indian air space, the package of the aircraft deployed by Pakistan Air Force (PAF) for the operation was “significantly large” as it comprised a fleet of JF-17 and F-16 combat aircraft, the sources said.

The sources said the Pakistani jets targeted Indian army’s bases in Krishna Ghati and Nangi Tekri and an ammunition point in Narian. However, the bombs dropped by the Pakistani jets fell in uninhabited areas.

Minutes after Pakistani jets violated Indian air space, the IAF’s Combat Air Patrol (CAP), comprising MiG-21 and other jets engaged with the enemy aircraft, successfully thwarting their attempts to bomb a number of key military installations in Naushera and Rajouri, they said.

Islamabad claimed it hit back at India by bringing down two Indian military aircraft, one of which crashed in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) while the other fell in Jammu and Kashmir.

“This morning PAF (Pakistan Air Force) jets while remaining in Pakistani airspace engaged six targets across the LoC,” Major General Asif Ghafoor told reporters in Islamabad.

“Our pilots locked on those six targets and we struck on open places,” he said, adding that it was decided that the PAF will not hit the military targets.

He said some of the targets were in Bhimber galli and Naran area where the supply depots were engaged from a distance.

In a terse press statement earlier in the day, External Affairs Ministry Spokesperson Raveesh Kumar, accompanied by Air Vice Marshal R G K Kapoor, said, “Pakistan has responded this morning by using its Air Force to target military installations on the Indian side. Due to our high state of readiness and alertness, Pakistan’s attempts were foiled successfully.”

He said the Pakistan Air Force activity was detected and the Indian Air Force responded instantly.

“In that aerial engagement, one Pakistan Air Force fighter aircraft was shot down by a MiG 21 Bison of the Indian Air Force. The Pakistani aircraft was seen by ground forces falling from the sky on the Pakistan side.

“In this engagement, we have unfortunately lost one MiG 21. The pilot is missing in action....” Expressing concern over the well-being of the IAF pilot, leaders of various parties said Pakistan should abide by Geneva Convention and ensure his safe return home.

EU diplomatic chief Federica Mogherini called on India and Pakistan to show the “utmost restraint” in their escalating confrontation. British Prime Minister Theresa May also urged both the countries to exercise restraint to avoid further escalation. — PTI

 

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/iaf-pilot-captured-by-pak-after-air-combat-pak-f16-shot-down/735684.html

[glenn239]

 

India might wish to accelerate the purchase of the S-400 system, perhaps evening buying an operational Russian system to close the time gap.

 

Hardly. S-400 won't be a really valuable asset in current situation, where Su-30MKI is present, aside from situation awareness provided by meaty radar it have. But for that Indians already have A-50. OTOH if shit REALLY hits the fan ABM capability of S-400 might become handy.

 

 

Here's details on the engagement,

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/tension-in-the-air-iaf-paf-lose-a-jet-each-pilot-in-pakistan-custody/articleshow/68192759.cms

 

The PAF was flying a group of about 10 planes maybe 50 miles from the border, and three advanced across the border - do that against S-400, say at Srinagar, and looks to me what you'd have is 10 shot down planes. The MIG-21 used R-73 to shoot down the F-16, the one the Indians lost may have been hit by a SAM or lost air to air, but the pilot apparently had locked onto a target and was in hot pursuit when hit.

Edited February 27, 2019 by glenn239

[Chris Werb]

Re the S-400, unless taking targeting info from an A-50 or similar, terrain masking would tend to severely limit effective range in that rather bumpy part of the world.

[Mighty_Zuk]

India already has SpyDer and LRSAM (Barack 8-ER) to protect its borders. It does not need an S-400 for that if it had the sense to station its air defenses close to the border.